3161

Hah, finally a matchup I disagree on in the other direction. I always deemed this a 5-5. She is decently hard to keep out and instantly kills once she got a bit of momentum on. Why do you think Juri has a notable advantage here? Much more than of ExGH→SPD, I’m scared of DashKarakusa.

Uuh

S: Akuma, Cammy, Seth, Viper, Adon, Fei
A+: Abel, Juri, Ken, Makoto, Rufus, Sagat, Sakura, Yun, Ryu, Claw, Honda, Gen
A: Cody, Dictator, Ibuki, Blanka, Boxer, ERyu
B+: Dhalsim, Guile, Zangief, Gouken
B: Chun, Dan, DJ, Oni, Rose, Yang
C: Dudley, Elf, Guy, THawk
?: Hakan

Something like this probably? Is quickmade but general gist should be right. Low-Mid. Which is still enough for EvoTop8 (see Guile) but not for the <big> score.

E: Intier unsorted.

I’m on that actually. Can’t say anything about most matchups though.

Not detailed but basically Gief has the options of ExGH to shoot through projectiles and the far reaching l.SPD, while Hawk has neither and no tool to make up for that either. If he is in, one is just as dead as against Gief, but he has a harder time getting in so that reflects on the score. As you noted, ExGH not knocking down anymore is a buff against Juri - I never felt a comparable threat level from ExSpire.

3162

[ S ]
Seth, C.Viper, Cammy.

[ A+ ]
Fei Long, Akuma, Adon, Rufus, Ibuki, Makoto.

[ A ]
Zangief, Sakura, Ryu, M.Bison, Sagat, Ken, Guy, Balrog, Cody.

[ B+ ]
Guile, E.Honda, Yun, Gen, Juri, Abel, Blanka, Chun-Li, Rose, Vega,
Gouken, E.Ryu, Dudley, Deejay, Dhalsim, Yang, Oni.

[ B ]
El Fuerte, Hakan, Dan.

[ C ]
T.Hawk.

Is mine.

RE Hawk: Hawk can be more patient with his uppercut, good pokes and condor dive to punish fireballs. he can also whiff it right in front of you and grab and you can’t really go air to air or anti air condor dive so you have to make a correct read. Let’s face it, how many of us have really played Hawk specialists? 95% of his players just spin to win and that makes the matchup ez-mode which I think a lot of people, including both of you are basing the 7-3 off. These points are not the case with Gief.

3163

Tempted to put my own list down and go into more detail about Hawk-Juri but don’t feel as though my opinion matters lol.

3164

it’s a discussion board… everyone’s opinion is welcome.

3165

:rolleyes:

3166

except yours.

3167

lol more like i dont play the game as much so my opinion is outdated.

[ S ]
Seth, Cammy, Akuma

[ A+ ]
Adon, Rufus, C.Viper, Makoto.

[ A ]
Fei Long, Zangief, Sakura, Ryu, M.Bison, Ibuki, Sagat, Ken, Guy, Balrog

[ B+ ]
Guile, E.Honda, Cody, Yun, Gen, Juri, Abel, Blanka, Rose, Vega, Chun-li,
Gouken, E.Ryu, Dudley, Deejay, Dhalsim, Yang, Oni.

[ B ]
El Fuerte, Hakan, Dan.

[ C ]
T.Hawk.

Used Genki’s list switched some characters around and hurriedly made a personal tier list.

I personally suck when going against T-Hawk. I constantly use lk fireballs even though his condor spire goes over it and get tagged or lose positioning. And I never seemingly watch his meter and consequently get hit by ex dive a lot more than I should. His ex dive is safe on hit and sometimes (i’m not sure how but it will Hit on block and he recovers right next to charcters which is a huge surprise factor and I’m not sure if there is recovery but I nearly always get grabbed right after.

Where as I feel Juri can control Gief and bait out Ex green hand (which I feel is the biggest threat of the matchup). I feel I have to be more wary when facing Hawk. Hawk’s normals (imo) are better than Gief’s and Hawk can compete with most of Juri’s normals. His cr.forward has beaten my cr.forward a lot of times and he can use condor spire to go over it and it hits.

I feel like a Hawk can easily beat Juri through patience. He has the health to take risks just like Gief. He can stay back and whiff his command grab in between Juri’s stores and releases to gain meter for ex dive and ex spire. I feel guessing between two moves that are both fireball invincible is huge threat to Juri and gives Hawk a slight advantage against Juri. Spire is also a really good anti air and I’ve seen it trade with her dive kick and beat more air normals than I wish. Far forward and maybe far strong seem to be Juri’s best normal(s) against Hawk imo.

But Juri could easily close out the match against Hawk. She can safe jump him easily and get a nice high/low mixup to force him to guess (fuzzy). Also close mk beats almost all wake up options outside his ex tomahawk (this was tested in AE not sure what his buffs were for 2012).

All opinion and personal experience. Take with a grain of salt. I’d rather face gief than Hawk.

3168

see now i agree with most of that bar one point: she can’t safe jump him though? wake up ex spd or whatever his is called takes away that option. everything else you’re pretty much spot on and this is exactly why i said people call the match 7-3 because 95% of hawk players are just dumb players that mash as hard as possible rather than playing ‘properly’, so your win rate is guaranteed to be good if you can counter scrubby play well.

3169

Well I wanna do one. I took out the B+ tier because I feel everyone in B is pretty much around even, and even then C tier isn’t that far behind. Just a few notably bad matchups (imo) behind. I have a bias for Cammy, I think Cammy destroys the matches she wins but gets mauled in the ones she doesn’t. Personally I think she’s A+ but I don’t feel like getting lynched. Glad to explain my reasoning for anything if someone wants.

[ S ]
Seth, C.Viper, Akuma, Fei, Cammy

[ A+ ]
Adon, Ibuki, Makoto, Abel, Ryu

[ A ]
Zangief, Ken, Boxer, Cody, Gouken, Rufus, Gen, Blanka, E. Honda

[ B ]
Guile, Yun, Juri, Chun-Li, Rose, Claw,
Sagat, E.Ryu, Dudley, Dhalsim, Yang, Dictator, Sakura, Guy

[ C ]
El Fuerte, Hakan, Dan, Oni, T. Hawk, Deejay

3170

I don’t look at tiers and matchup ratings from others. I go by what I experience and the conversation of others. Logically gief is not an easy match for juri for reasons genki said.

I haven’t tested it but I’m sure it’s true… Giefs grab range is huge and extends when you throw a limb out. If that’s true, far rh is her best poke. But… It has to be used carefully. That range is right inside green hand. One of those… 50/50 time.

I think a good idea of what’s a good match and what’s a bad match is room for error. Against Seth, you fuck up once you could lose badly. Bad match. Sakura, Honda, blanka, cammy, akuma all fit these criteria.

But look at a character like viper or makoto. If I escape I can bully them with the kd. Can’t say the same for the above characters.

Think about yun in ae. It was bad because he had nothing to lose. If he was reckless then he would win. I played perfectly I would still lose. Gief is the same way.

The only reason gief is a favorable match on the eyes of most is zoning. What happens when a gief walks forward and blocks? It’s now giefs game.

5-5 is a logical conclusion. Unless you’re saying I have more of a chance beating him with zoning than he does his mixup… Which I don’t think is true.

3171

I don’t think the match is in her favor strictly because of zoning, she has other tools that work to her advantage. From the start of the onus is on Gief to get in, Juri is out of his mixup range. In regards to room for error, if Gief makes a mistake he gets sent to the other side of the screen (ie. divekick punishing whiffed spd or forward throwing unsafe greenhand) and has to do the walk and block thing all over again. As Kail said GIef is able to grab limbs but trying to 360 whiffed st forward and other pokes isn’t reliable punish for him, if he whiffs it’s an easy punish. They’ll most likely be trying to punish your pokes with st strong or st short buffered into green hand. When t comes down to footsies like that it’s about playing the player and personally I believe Juri has an advantage in that situation.

3172

Well, for starters, Zangief is better in most areas than Hawk.

T. Hawk lacks much of what Zangief utilizes in the Juri match-up to get himself in. Pokes are still dangerous for Juri to do (many trades). The telegraph on T. Hawk’s specials is awful and on block are so easily punished. As opposed to say Gief’s lariat which can be a pain to punish at times. T. Hawk guessing wrong is much different than Gief.

That lariat kills almost all jump in possibilities.

Gief can cover ground much better than Hawk with some of his normals and green hand.

His jump is so slow making him an easy target for anti-airs or evade. His mix up game is much higher risk.

Between T. Hawk being easier to zone and having to take more risks, that’s a big difference in the match.

Then there is stuff like the LP SPD range, meter building, etc. I just don’t find Hawk to pose the same threat due to his options.

3173

I think T-Hawk has way better mobility than zangief. T-Hawk doesnt and shouldn’t use condor spire except quick meter gain and unless they have good spacing for the move and to combo against people. T.Hawk can crouch mid fireball and move forward with his sweep (is faster than guile’s double sweep and has about the same good recovery) and try to tag with you cr.mk into ex spire. I dont know if it will combo to be honest but that is space he is gaining against Juri.

Gief has a better post-knockdown mixup but that doesn’t mean Hawk doesn’t have any knockdown mixups of off spd (namely lp spd). Lp spd gives him post-knockdown ghetto Hawk mixups. Condor Spire over your body into some frame trap into spd again, and probably condor dive cross up setups. If he hp spd’s he probably has the life lead and is given full screen space to work back in and also gain meter slowly.

Gief’s mobility comes down to far roundhouse which is a easy reaction cr.forward. His cr.forward ghetto “oh im gonna spd right after even though im negative on block” is silly. His better mobility comes down to quick lariat through fireballs, focusing through fireballs, and walking. If you stay in good positioning you can AA any jump ins with far mk so you dont have to worry about him whiffing his jump short. If you see a lariat you can far roundhouse that shit and still have decent positioning on screen (i wouldnt trust walking forward ten cr.mk’ing him when they use lariat but thats just me being overly cautious).

Gief doesnt have good ways in on Juri compared to T-Hawk. But when Gief is in he does a better job of closing out the match quickly. T-Hawk will most likely have unknown post-knockdown setups that no one really cares to know about because hes bottom tier.

I still would rather face Gief with his one forward moving fireball invincible move than T-Hawks two. I’m not a good guesser.

They both have trouble against Juri but I think a smart T-Hawk player would have a better advantage getting in with his tools compared to Gief’s one decent that she has to worry about.

3174

so the top 5 juris in the world on GFWL are japanese and are as follows.
in no particular order.

aiaitomo pc
[media=youtube]V9SOFgoDB6I[/media]
Spirits Kasumi
[media=youtube]Yp19ADiBzNY[/media]
CYBO Live
(this vid is one i recorded so i’m using it here since there just aren’t any vids up with this player on YT, hence the poor sound/visual quality since i record with fraps)
[media=youtube]Xy-K8igdK3s[/media]
Mibegrang
[media=youtube]ggxceOECqgQ[/media]
Yaassi i
[media=youtube]PBJyMjcdwXw[/media]

3175

Venfayeth taking Juri lessons from Juicebox

Lessons start at 2h41m mark

3176

and if you don’t mind the poor visual/audio quality of my fraps recorded matches, i managed to record some of those player’s matches in the GFWL reply section so…
here ya go.
[media=youtube]iPfDOwoF-lo[/media]
and
[media=youtube]7dwoqGhTHRQ[/media]
later.

3177

Even though I don’t agree at all… think Gief is much better at getting in…but for argument’s sake I’ll say it’s the same. They “have the same ability to get in.” Now, the reality is that Gief, as you said, can do SO MUCH more once he’s in. T. Hawk, once up close, isn’t the threat Gief is. Not even close. Eventually, Gief/Hawk is going to get in. Juri’s defense is garbage. Once Gief is in, the round is all but lost. Not the case with T. Hawk. Juri literally has no option to deal with Gief wake up pressure.

So, even if we agree in the middle and say it’s the same, Gief proves harder in the end.

I’ve fought great Giefs and great T. Hawks, and my success vs. the Hawks is a lot higher. Maybe it’s just my style that deals better with Hawk. I dunno. I do see it 7-3, and I see Gief 6-4.

3178

Speaking of T Hawk, found these old matches on my HD, really should have played better. No idea why I backdashed condors. :shake:

to make the page load faster and these are L’s lol =(

Spoiler

[media=youtube]E-r9L4wwMyY[/media]

[media=youtube]Nyo_f7Byhzs[/media]

For what it’s worth, I’m still watching through your old vids on the last page, and I hope to type up a big-ish reply over the weekend.

After seeing the vs Ryu ones, one thing I can say is you gotta do much bigger punishes/damage for things like a whiffed SRK. A throw is def not going to cut it – something as simple c. :hp: to pinwheel at least.

3179

I’m going to have to watch this about 10 more times to try to figure out what I should be doing against El Fuerte.
[media=youtube]k2iYBkU1sPw[/media]

3180

ok thanks alot 4neqs!