Are fighting game players set out to be the most willingly stupid community in existence? Why is this even still an issue? Its like communicating with a bunch of babies.
I see it more of a mixture of being selfish and stupid. Selfish for doing it, and then using stupid reasons to support why you did it.
Please read the quote quoted:
and explain how any part of that has anything to do with splitting the pot. It does not.
It does not. Please happily drop that notion from the conversation and rest contented that the people who run things are not idiots. :tup:
It’s not. I play secondary and thirdary and fourthary teams all the time. I’m good with them and they’re better in various matchups which is why I play them. It’s also clear that I know what I’m doing (also clear that my execution is on par with that of someone trapped in handcuffs underwater while falling off a bridge upside down).
The exact and only concern, no matter how much anyone involved on any front wants to present it, is manipulating results or intentionally underperforming. You might find out that your STSFN secondary team gets worked by XXX’s team, but a rational competitor is going to be upset about that and the average spectator probably is not going to think “huh that person has never played this character/team before”.
The guesswork potentially involved is one of the most horrible things in this community that I’m aware of and no rational TO wants to have to even think about making any sorts of decisions on this topic.
This thread… LOL!
In this topic: people are mad at people acting like shitheads (justifiably so), and then we have some people make excuses that it’s okay for people acting like shitheads.
Stay super classy, SRK.
Rationale in this thread.
Two basketball teams in the finals decide to shoot full court shots because they say that the inside of the other team is too strong, and they don’t wanna risk moving forward, but they are the ones playing, and they got there, so they have every right to do so.
You have every right to act like a dickhead, but people have every right to punish you for doing so.
Pointless tldr with Jimmy:
tldr with jimmy
Spoiler
Major competitors realize that it’s to their benefit to be on-stream in a competitive tournament. I have had multiple major players that you know demand and/or simply force themselves on-stream for their matches because they are getting something out of this too. (I also have had major players that you know beg to not be on stream: not everybody lusts for the spotlight, and if you can’t name one of the people who asked me for that then you haven’t been paying attention to the past year. And that itself is illuminative to me of the true exhaustion that we’re talking about here, but that does lead straight back into “take some time and compete only when you want to compete rather than giving the tournament a pity fuck.”)
It is a symbiotic relationship. It has been since day one. As far as I know XXX and REDACTED are pretty close to hating me, for example, but they certainly loved it when I put their footage up and were angrier when I took my footage of them down (for conduct unbecoming to the community in my shitty opinion) than at any other time. It is a symbiotic relationship. If Player XXX wants to bow out because he’s not getting enough out of the tiny tiny pool of resources, than Player XXX can bow out and the next man up can prove his merit.
Completely separate discussion, and it’s pointless to bring up. Row and JMar would split the pot all the time, and they’d also play it out like desperate enemies because they’re competitors and they’re competing. Any discussions about money can gleefully remain completely separate. This is just about deliberately underperforming.
Sure, likewise, but I have to admit I remain baffled why those who haven’t stepped into the arena feel the need to speak about it. I’ve been on every side of the equation other than profiting (I’ve deliberately not monetized anything I’ve ever done: I know not everyone has that luxury since people’s time and money actually are expenses) and streaming (too lazy, and my last new camera was stolen and I’m too lazy to replace it yet). I’ve run house, small, and large tournaments (and lost a ton of money doing so, as most people will), competed at all levels, and produced maybe a thousand hours of footage viewed a gazillion times.
None of the things that you state as regards the behaviors of others has any ring of truth whatsoever. It would be excellent if you would realign yourself to only speak for yourself and not assume evil and greed on the part of others, especially on the people donating their time energy and money to even give you anything happening in the first place. The least effective way anyone can make money is by working in the tournament scene. Everyone I am aware of, and generally I believe I know these people better than you, is quietly pretty damn generous and strongly believes that this community brings something amazing to the lives of what was tens, then hundreds, then thousands, and now… millions? And maybe that comes at the cost of politely asking people not to fuck around on a thousand someone else’s time, but that is viewed as an acceptable loss by everyone I know that is investing their time here.
So leave. In no competitive scene is lobbing softballs at your opponent considered appropriate behavior by a competitor.
Not sure what scene you’re from, but most serious players I know of on the East and West coast are prone to marathon sessions. Pretending that they’re anemic seems needless.
That “just because” is “just because we are a community working together”. Your alt.because is “because fuck everybody else but me.”
Think your thoughts through.
I went to the national semipro football championships in Vegas last year (my friend was in it), and I can assure you those people had close to zero belief that they would ever get a salary. They compete because they love to play the game and compete. People who don’t want to be there don’t need to be there.
The sports example that you brought up remains terrible and you should drop it. Nobody at any level of any competitive sport in any format in any venue in any type of competition such as Scrabble or football or Mathalympics (my dad’s a math teacher, sorry) expects to pull the punk-ass tactics shown in the FGC and continue on without consequence. The competitive adjudicating bodies owning each of those scenes is a reasonably strong reason why this is so, versus the FGC scene which was very deliberately grown organically, but still: just a flawed example that should be dropped.
I’ve competed in a large variety of sports (cards, board games, physical, mental, video games) at local to international levels and in no venue whatsoever are your apologetics valid.
The TOs, who are as human and as powerless as you and I, generally don’t have that awesome power in large part because there is no overall governing body and this is organic and not corporate-fueled. Not everybody has historically been excited about selling out. Maybe you are, and maybe if you are you should go about building up your ideal tournament structure. The heckling of other people’s structure seems pointless, especially when the arguments are as extremely shallow as yours have been.
I love Justin’s alt teams, but both he and I know exactly why TOs have been telling him for about a decade now “nope, don’t use that team”.
This isn’t new, and this has never been isolated to Evo. The difference now (IMHO) is that you have newer TOs who don’t have the chutzpah that older TOs had and so you’ve never needed to hear about this before. (Probably in part because a lot of the old tourneys rested largely upon the shoulders of one key sparkplug, but that’s a different discussion and merely is brought up because I think the power level delta, where some players feel they’re above the tourney/TO, is kind of new and enhanced by the streaming scene.)
I’m not sure that there’s anything hypocritical about trying to keep growing the scene, making it better, and even, when they finally have to, empowering ‘smaller’ TOs to be able to stick up to people that believe themselves above everyone else at a given event.
This gets back to the previous comment about every other organized competition of any nature on the planet.
Think it through. What happens if they don’t do that? What are they enabling? It’s pretty logical. You can have rules, but since we’re an organic (read: disorganized as fuck) scene you need some vague ability to put some teeth into rules that have basically been forced onto the scene after abusive behavior by one or two people.
You bring up Larry, so an appropriate Final Round-based example would be 300lb Eugene. The guy plays troll teams… he also plays them all tournament long and is good with them and it shows.
And who wants to run and volunteer at your troll tournament?
It’s a pointless extraction anyways: a tournament is clearly symbiotic between the TO and players. Chicken/egg. A thousand person 300lb Eugene tournament would have a thousand 300lb Eugenes trying their hardest to troll their ways to wins against everybody else. Nobody would deliberately underperform and we would not be discussing it. You have no point with your comment.
I do include all TOs and everyone in the entire universe except for Viscant in my statement. But that is pretty retarded to nit on since without a TO you need a different TO. Without any given player, the tournament goes on. (Again, except for Viscant.)
This is you putting words in other people’s mouth again. I have played fairly random teams for years now. I am very aware that I am better with other teams. You signed up to compete against others. Compete against others. If not, leave. Other people are there to compete.
(And the TO is there to help people compete against each other. If the TO doesn’t want to be there, leave… but do try to be sure there’s someone else to do that work.)
You’re wrong. Check with Ranma and Phi.
This is just completely baffling and I don’t know how you made sense of it in your head. Drugs? Nobody is shitting on players. There’s a request that people play it out if they want to enter a tournament. If you don’t, don’t enter the tournament. This is an Us Together mentality and environment. The people running these things are running these things because they believe in community, which is comprised of all of us. Maybe someone is too immature to fit into the scene right then, but the option for people to grow up is usually there.
Bear in mind that this kind of thing doesn’t happen in tee ball nor Pee Wee Football, so the maturity level of those that we are discussing is truly remarkable and not in a positive way.
It never has been and never will be, and every aspect of the TO side of the discussion is simply about ensuring that it remains a community of us competing.
This doesn’t even make sense. At this point it appears that you are incoherent possibly due to tiredness. The sole point under discussion, which I’m not certain you’re grokking, is ‘don’t intentionally underperform or manipulate results’. If you just pulled your hammy or broke your leg jumping offstage like Yipes actually did at … Evo2k7, then you will be limited by fate. Just don’t make it by choice.
I’ll chalk it up to tiredness, put you on Ignore, and move on. Get some rest. 
Semi-true. I’ve worn all those hats, but I think it depends on where you start and what you care about. I started as a player, first and foremost, and my heart lies with that. I don’t care about collusion- if I lose to a better player, I go train more. Half the time I don’t stick around for Grand Finals at events, since I’m already out. If those guys made it to the top, then good for them. If I had organized something, I’m just glad all these people showed up.
Now if you started as a TO or commentator primarily, yea you are gonna want hype and would care about image, rep, etc…you are not gonna stop players from sandbagging, colluding, whatever, and if you call it out and “punish” them it just leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. But you can hype it up to make other players prevent it from happening. Have bounty bonuses for example.
Collusion is really simple, and I don’t know why people keep trying to defend it.
If people stop playing to win, they should get punished.
If you enter a tourney, if you pay money to climb a ladder, then you should always be playing to win.
The only people who get a bad taste in their mouth are the ones who were colluding and wasting everyone’s time.
You think third place is upset they suddenly get mad money? You think the pot monsters who already left the scene and don’t care (aka you) have a bad taste? You think the stream monsters get a bad taste?
Let me tell you something, in the FGC people LOVE watching blowups, and nothing is more delicious than hearing that two people who were fucking around in GF got DQ’d. Whoever pulls that plug gets instant respect, monsters learn that this TO is not to be fucked with (both stream and pot) and people will know that if they go in on a tourney with this person who has shut down people colluding, they will feel better about entering that tourney because they know that people fucking around in the tourney won’t be tolerated.
If they have a rule in place at the tournament then enforce that & DQ the person or persons doing the offending. Its really no big thing, treat it like you would treat any other DQ.
For me personally once i lose, i really dont give a fuck what happens.
I’m not trying to defend collusion; I’m just saying that “punishing” it seems to be the wrong way to deal with it. Yes, you “climb a ladder” and “play to win” and if you got to GF - then you’ve already won, my man. If I got third place, and got money for being a good sportsman, that’s cool, but I probably would have felt better to beat one of the top 2 assholes. And hearing GF players get DQ’ed? That’s NOT something I would love to hear at next year’s evo.
If I get to Grand Finals and am promised a pot bonus for 1st or 2nd as advertised, that’s what I’d expect. Here’s a story that is semi-related (maybe not, but I’ve never really shared it):
Back when I was playing mvc2, I heard of a local tournament in Rockaway, Queens (I lived like 40 min - 1 hr away by car) at some local game shop. First prize was a video game of your choice. So I go there, and it’s obvious they are all local scrubs/kids whatever and I’m the only one who actually knew how to play. I was by no means a great player, but I was gonna win hands down. So we get to grand finals, and then the game store owner comes up with a new rule: “Grand Finals will be tomorrow morning!” Everyone’s like wtf, but it was obvious he did it because he didn’t want me winning, thinking I would take his game and never come back (which was true). It didn’t make sense for me to come back, I lived so far away, and his games were shitty…plus there was no competition. But you know what, I came back the next day and snatched that game up just to make a point.
Two guys who attend local tournies openly collude, nobody thinks it’s a big deal. They’re roommates, and everyone understands that the reason they’re sharing the money is just to lower rent. They still try to beat each other and talk shit before the match.
That’s probably because the pot at these monthlies is only $150-$200 for the game the two of them usually win, and it’s just across town.
Taking this from a perspective of a larger tournament, that would be a pretty different situation. People prep for these things, take time off work, travel long distances, play against people they might only see at one or two tournaments per year. People are investing significantly into competition and some players are taking away from that.
If you could do whatever you wanted at a tournament, then there’d be no need for tournament rules.
Stop defending stupid behavior.
My last words on this. not that i matter. lol
the funny thing is most of us are pretty much on the same page with only the difference that some of us dont think this is as big a deal as its being made to be, and think the excessive obsession with colluding or under performing is blown out of proportion, as i have never seen a grand finals or matches in top 8 that was just straight up buffoonery and trolling. ive seen people play secondary teams, ive seen people go more for resets then max damage more often then ive ever seen them do it before, but ive never seen someone just holding forward, or doing jab combos and random supers for no reason for a best of 3 set. the closest we have gotten to that is wong and noel brown, and i think something in texas where ultradavd just walked away from the mic, or stopped commentating, but then the TO said dude, wtf, play dat shit out, and even those werent like straight up omg the worst thing ive ever seen, it was just wack.
to each there own i guess. im not finna argue anymore and get into qualifying myself to be able to speak on the topic, as if ive never entered a tourney before, never have tried to develop a local community around a game and bring hype to those locals (cough tvc), never tried to get shine for my state even after i moved (interviewed local legends and local great players a few years back just cause i wanted to see more growth and understanding of where these people come from and who they are) , dont know anyone, and am just a nobody on srk. its draining.
i understand at the end of the day sometimes we are fans too, and we just wanna see some great matches, but i dont know, for me, unless you are straight up just playing like a dick, and wasting everyones time, i dont care who you play, or what style of play you choose for the match. if you lose because of your choices, then you lose. if you colluded that, i dont care, because it doesnt effect me in any way shape or form, and i doubt that a community that in its darkest times still survived without a bunch of sponsors and screaming for dq’s for any perceived under performing, wont still continue to progress.
pretty much everyone here agreed he could do what he wanted with his pot money
pretty much everyone here agreed that if they were playing like straight up trolls, they would shut that shit down too
pretty much everyone here agreed that TO’s work hard to put on a show and run a tourney, so we generally respect the rules as they are, and the consequences if we break them
also some other stuff, but we just diverge on the attention of the punishment for breaking the rules, the necessity for it in some cases, considering there has never been a severe case of streamed troll finals ever. at the most you could argue they were under performing for most of the cases, which is super subjective and hard to judge. i guess we also diverge on how much say do you have in your purchase when you enter a tournament, regardless of rules, but that is pretty much negated since most of us agree to the punishment of dq or whatever if caught blatantly under performing or colluding.
i think the sad part is i see that most of us arent that different in opinion, but some people when it comes to this subject are only seeing red, ignoring any mid grounds that they agree on, and we’re just arguing to argue at this point, and with a lot of rage for those under the more popular opinion on the topic. i always find that to be a pretty big red flag when someones argument starts with rage, continues with rage, and ends with rage, treating everyones opinion outside of it as just a troll, and or stupid.
also, @lord_raptor i never called you a stream monster, nor was i implying it. a lot of generalizations on my end arent just from this thread, but from the last like 2-3 of these threads that have popped up over time, and also literally talking about stream monsters. anyone who has been on this forum for 6 years or more has probably been to a few tournies before, helped run some stuff, tried to help build a scene in some way shape or form, or something. im not going to go into qualifying myself, because ive done my part, ive fought through the trenches, and learned my way up to my skill level now, and i wont apologize for handling real life over video games, taking me out from attending tournies every other month, or running a local every week. its an irrelevant point anyways, considering the known players are the ones that are provoking the conversation to begin with, and continuing it.
people say all kinds of shit behind the scenes too. ive kicked (like drinking and hanging out) it with everyone from nerdjosh, magus, to ultra, to chris g (not dropping names as if we’re best friends or anything, and im the first to hang with them. lol. just sayin). let us all not get too fooled into the popular opinion, and that only just us forum scrubs have a less popular opinion on the various topics that are talked about here, from collusion to ps3 vs xbox, etc.
but i dont even wanna get labeled as some kind of anti corporation, TO, whatever type person. ive praised people equally as much in my post, even though i may criticize them or question their motives at times. no one cares about that though, and im just being painted to be some erratic scrub with no position to speak whatsoever. its all good, we love this fg shit, so we all get hyped up on it. i’ll just keep my mouth shut more for 2014. thats my resolution. its not worth the stress of arguing with peers. i know i love fighting games, i love competing, i love tournies, and i love the scene. just because i have a difference of opinion on some things doesnt make me some cancer to the fgc or whatever shit people may think.
happy new year yall. for me, i say fuck this, back to training mode, literally. lol
If there’s GF collusion with a spooky-plug pull at EVO I’d probably buy 3 subscriptions, even though the event is over.
We’ve already established that pot-splitting and playing characters outside of your main ain’t the issue here, so I dunno why people keep bringing that shit up. Like Preppy mentioned earlier:
Case in point for playing secondary characters and beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEc3gMjhF44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISwJpUHXLr8
I have the utmost respect for the work that TO’s do, however, the fact remains that when I enter a tourney I am a competitor, not a performer. I don’t even like pictures being taken of me, so the notion of “intentionally underperforming,” is a little disconcerting in its implications. This shit doesn’t even come up in card or board game competitions because it’s impossible to prove and people aren’t confusing it with a spectator sport. Of course I enjoy watching streams as well but I don’t confuse what I’m watching with a spectator sport.
My opinion on the whole mess, I don’t think the TO was wrong in doing what he did,. He set up the rules, by you playing in his tourney you agree’d to them. However, I am against the aspect where it falls to one person’s discretion in order to determine what is collusion and what isn’t. Some people say you can’t pick your secondaries. So no matter the scenario, I can’t pick certain characters? You are essentially limiting the characters I am able to play or in other words, telling me how to play this game.That I can’t pick so-and-so characters that I have secretly been preparing for a certain match-up, but the TO wouldn’t know about it because he made a judgement right on the spot. Some people say its ok only if its for counter-picks, well, whose match-up list are we using? It’s not like these match-up charts are set in stone in some Bible, so what if my opinion on a certain match-up differs from someone else? In my truly honest opinion, I think Ghost Rider beats Vergil 1v1 in UMvC3, but I’m sure if I picked him on stream at GF’s, the general population will see Ghost Rider, know hes known as a bad character, and scream “Collusion!” So just because the TO isn’t aware of this, or may think differently on a match-up than I do, I could possibly forfeit whatever money when I am still playing to win. “If two people are picking their secondaries, its likely they are colluding” well, good thing we are disqualifying people based on it “likely” being true.
And then we go into the topic of “under-performing” or “not playing our best effort” “playing to win”, well, again, what scale or cut-off are we using to determine how much a person is trying? I don’t like how there is a rule that involves a lot of this grey area between giving effort and not giving effort, and letting it fall into the opinion of one person to determine the entire outcome. What if I say I am trying my best, but the TO says I’m not? According to this rule, the TO automatically wins no matter what.
I understand and recognize that upholding respect and integrity of a tournament is a valid concern that TO’s have to deal with, it is just that I don’t like how its up to the discretion of one person’s opinion to lay judgement. What I see as a solution to this whole debacle is TO’s using individual contracts with terms stating “the TO has full authority to disqualifying you on suspicion” on it in place of our single paper sign-up sheets. That way if anyone has anything bad to say, they can just pull out the paper and say “You signed it. If you had/have a problem with it, the exit is right over there.”
Vergil, like every other character who can teleport, owns Ghost Rider free, but I agree with the rest of what you are saying. TO’s are human too, putting them in that kind of position just doesn’t seem smart. Nobody should be entrusted with that kind of power. But then, what alternative exists? There doesn’t seem to be one. Some have proposed it but I’m sure most agree, making people register their character choices beforehand would be a terrible idea.
My answer is to stop giving a fuck about collusion. I have yet to hear any attempt at an explanation of how it affects anybody to the point where it becomes a legitimate concern. Not a good show for the fans? That’s not a legitimate concern. I’m sure it leaves a bad taste in the TO’s mouth but that can’t really be sufficient justification for all this hubbub.
It is a tournament, not a casual. Not to mention it’s the freaking grand finals. Finalists are expected to play at their best and show that they deserve to end up there.
I know it’s scripted, but this is the very same reason why fans are enraged on the “Fingerpoke of Doom” match. It’s pretty much a collusion as well.