The money he’s taking from other people at a tournament put together due to the time and energy and emotional investment of other people.
Just went to a tournament Saturday and made it to winner’s finals on a broken stick, so that’s clearly not true. And it’s awesome that you want to keep up ad hominem attacks, but it really does nothing for the discussion.
On their own time, sure. On the time of everyone else there, and notably the time of the people running the tournament: it’s cancerous to the scene. Why give the people who give up the time and energy to actually contribute one more reason to not want to be involved?
You can do the completely evil MLG line of only considering it “eSports” if it’s company-sponsored if you want, but that’s unduly limiting and at that point it is not community-driven it’s company-driven. MvC2’s resurrection and SF2’s resurrection and probably other things don’t happen if we decide it takes company sponsorship to make something real. The FGC I care about is community-driven. And as regards “baseball”: you bring up their millionaires: what happens at the semi-pro or spring league or rookie league or college or high school level if you get caught colluding? Your example of baseball is a perfect example of how this is not put up with at any level regardless of how much money you make or don’t make.
So don’t compete. Let other people who are actually interested in playing it out play it out. This isn’t rocket science. You’re in a tournament run by someone else with their facilities and their volunteers you respect their rules and the reasons why they are doing this for you and everybody else in the first place. Your opinion doesn’t matter a lick of beans. This isn’t your tournament. If you want to run your own tournament, have fun. Most every tournament starts small: let it develop with the people who want to be there. If you do not want to be there, if you don’t have the respect for it and those who brought it to you to play it out: don’t go. This is not rocket science.
This does not match up with any of the TOs I know and have known for years who care about the scene and are trying to make it better. Typing “lulz” doesn’t dismiss an argument, and ad hominems are the shittiest form of argument. Who is trying to be Mr. Big Dick? Name names. Everybody involved here running stuff that I know of cares deeply and honestly about the scene and has fought for years to bring you the excellence we have today.
Nope. You need players-who-want-to-be-there more than anything else. People who don’t want to be there don’t need to be there. Nobody is God’s Gift to the tournament scene: the world moves on without any one of us, and the community is always comprised of the people who want to be part of the community. People who do not want to be, strangely, are not.
They’ve had this rule for years (decades?) now, it’s been enforced, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Talk to JWong.
There are far fewer tournament organizers and volunteers than there are players. If the players do not want a tournament, then maybe a tournament is not what should be run for them and you guys can have a big huggy casual session.
None of this is rocket science, and much like the inane conversation about TOs making money (hint: they don’t): you should be legally required to run tournaments for a year if you want to get up on a soapbox on this.
A lot of people thought this, however when players ask the brothers if this was a button check during that match, they said no. Not to mention, during the interview of the “winner”, they stated that they planned to collude had they both reach Grand Finals.
This isn’t just word of mouth either, this was all on video.
Secondaries? Try, characters they’re not even familiar with other than the knowledge that character is stated to be the worst character in the game.
I’ve been in situations with buddies where I reach Grand Finals with them. We split the pot almost 100% of the time, but never have we decided to pick two random characters for the sake of making it a joke. Every time we’ve done this (even with several other people), we always play our best, and if won, my opponent looks defeated even knowing we split the pot.
Honestly, I don’t understand the entire collusion thing, but I don’t like it.
As long as it’s not painfully obvious that they’re colluding, I really dont give a fuck.
Collude all you want, but at least make it look like you’re trying and not just smacking your hands against the stick.
Can we make the term “first world problems” another type of Godwins Law and just disregard that shit unless someone is actually comparing something to a problem in the third world?
Anyway, it seems to be pretty obvious really, do whatever you like with the money, pick whoever the fuck you like and just play the best of your abilitys, I get that “it’s just a game”, but come on, can’t a couple of grown ass men keep their serious hats on for just one more match and then mess around as much as they like in casuals?
**its funny the lack of sympathy from some of us in the community, considering what “they” have right now is purely because of us. spooky is a cool dude, really cool, but i dont see that guy cutting percentage checks for all the pro bono work that has been done to support his stream, his brand, and his goal. you think the team spooky brand would exist without great players showing up to provide him with that great content on a weekly basis through all of lifes troubles, weather, etc…? lol, cmon son. no one is sponsored by nike because of team spooky, but spooky has been given the chance to chase a new dream, find a new career path because of the dedicated players who gave it their all before he was high horsing it on some collusion rampage. he thanks his supporters a lot, but mostly the stream chat, not the chris g’s, sanfords, rayray, flux’s, etc… (was smart of him to be one of the first streamers to fully embrace the stream chat. it paid off) that have given him countless amount of hours of footage for him to feel free to brand, make money off of, and continue forward on his own journey.
like the dude above who said, hey, maybe they split because they needed the money, and their friend said thats fine, i’ll split with you. thats not the case here, but we would all feel like some fucking assholes if someone was trying to save up to pay rent, get a surgery, by a car so they can get a better job to support themselves, etc…, and we’re all like, NAH SON, FUCK YOU, PLAY IT OUT HOW I WANT IT TO BE PLAYED OUT IN MY IMAGINATION OF HOW IT SHOULD HAPPEN. especially considering how grass roots our community is.
people act like all this shit is selflessness these days, and sometimes it is, alot of times, but it isnt always, and there is no room to talk about it, because its always just none of our business. im not saying no one can make money (very few are, and most who do are using that to get by, travel, and what not), but some people got shit twisted. **
@ preppy
I just wanna say, we conflict a lot in fgd, but aint no hate. i guess our opinions are fo sho cold and hot, black and white. i dont think i lean heavy any particular way, as i will give props constantly when due, but sometimes i just cannot rock with just siding with the popular opinion in some of these cases. with that said, lets go.
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huh, im talking about the guy who put in the money for the pot bonus, not the dudes in grand finals.
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well thats fine. difference of opinion then. no argument there. its not really attack on anyone, just a harsh opinion.
[details=Spoiler]well theyre not going to get banned immediately from play for doing it, and they can do what they want. if a TO doesnt like it, make people sign contracts for your tournament with no refunds, and immediate disqualification of the match if caught colluding, or just simply not playing your best. i doubt that will hold up in court very well, but i also doubt anyone will take it there anytime soon.
also, what about all the time and energy those players put in just to make it grand finals. they are all of a sudden just cancerous assholes because after a full like 8-12 hour day they decide eh, we’re brothers, lets just pick some subs and play it out. you do not make it to grand finals because you spent the whole day picking your nose, colluding matches, and not giving your best. you get to grand finals because you bossed up on everyone, and you put in that work at the tournament and outside of it.
if a TO doesnt like it, put it on paper and make the players sign a contract. until, all the other stuff is just fun to talk about on forums, but means nothing if no one signs themselves off on. i respect the rules of the shit, but i know no one else has to. so in a part i guess im playing devils advocate, but also, i know players put in a lot of work at tournies, and by the end you can feel drained, and i can see how some come to the conclusion that they are just gonna split, and just enjoy putting on their own show for grand finals. i mean its not like these dudes were just mashing jab at each other all grand finals and laughing like a couple turds. at least thats not what i got from the info here, and even other more notable alleged collusions werent that bad either.
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[details=Spoiler]i agree its community driven. i dont think i disagree with that at all. its actually getting more corporate, naturally, but its also clearly not so simple to just tell players what to do. we have all just got along with the way things went because we just kept it that simple before, but times change, people change, and things grow complicated. i just feel like the argument on this topic is basically, fuck the players, listen to me, and when someone responds back, why, its simply, just because.
well when people are bringing up the sport reference, they are talking about mlb mostly, but you can apply it to college level, minors, or even high school. you perform well in high school and dont get into bullshit because you want to get into college on a scholarship. then you perform well and dont get into bullshit in college so you can make it to the majors or minors. then from minors on up, you perform well and dont get into bullshit because youre finally now paid not to, but the incentive was no less previous to getting a salary.
the fighting game communities tournaments are in no way similar to any of that at all. we pay to enter, we do what we want, and most people do not care about one day being able to have a scene so big that you could come in 8th at 7 majors all year round, and still make like 30k a year. most of us know that wont happen, and for more reasons then just our own cynicism, also because at any point in time, any of those companies can go, nope, shut it down. we dont own any of this shit. we’re just getting a free pass as to not upset the consumer, plus no true money is really being made.
whats the incentive to not collude right now in the fgc? unless TO’s start talking harsher punishments like bans on players from various tournies when they have solid objective evidence of collusion, and what not, there is no reason to not collude if you want to. it might be in poor taste to many, but to many, they also do not care, and to those that care loudly at the moment, time will pass and they will soon forget, and back to cheering for whatever again. [/details]
[details=Spoiler] hear ya, but on a competitive level, i like the freedom of two people making it to grand finals, and you cant tell them shit because you didnt make it. i personally like that freedom to dictate your own existance by your own means, and not because people feel you owe them something because youre taking their money too. if you didnt like gambling with your money when you entered the tournament, then you shouldve have stayed the fuck home imo.
your right, it isnt rocket science at all. if im in a tournament run by someone else, and he/she says, these are the rules, if you dont obey them, this can happen, and i choose to not obey them, then thats on me, and thats what happened. ive said many times that he had the right to do as he pleased with his pot money, and he did, but people dont like that those players had the right to do as they pleased also, which i find to be wack. TO’s are definitely doing it for us, for the community, and no one is arguing against that. im just saying in the format that the fgc tournaments go by, well quite frankly, there isnt much of shit to do about players who choose to disobey the rules, and there is a lot of energy lately being severely wasted arguing about it, and ranting about it.
would i play my hardest the whole tourney, yeah, i like winning. if i felt like trolling on the winners side of grand finals with my b team, still playing hard, but maybe getting more flashy then usual, or going for more resets just for show, do i feel i should be black balled and demonized? no. will i? most likely in the current feelings of the fgc. before, its whatever, we’d laugh it up, and then you either pick your stuff, or hold that l for fucking around, and it is what it is, but now since people are watching, sponsors this, sponsors that, blah blah blah, its like, no more fun, dont fuck around, be serious all the time, where is your suit and tie, yes sir. people need to relax. [/details]
[details=Spoiler]most of the TO’s do, and im not gonna name names so these uberly sensitive people can start stalking me on srk to try to find a way to ban me, but i mean, the guy we’re talking about right now is clearly one of them. but i do have a question. was this TO for the blazblue tournament handling this on stream or off? if offstream, then i eat take back any harsh words towars him, but if it was on stream, then well yeah.
its funny that the twins shit on people trying to make a career out of playing fighting games every chance they can get (i do to. lol), yet they are a part of the force that decides to enforce rules about colluding to extend outside of their evo event, but to any event that wants front page publicity, and any event especially that is a road to evo event (the latter making obvioius sense, and the former just being bullying).
i think its sad that having a difference of opinion on a topic that is clearly no black and white by any means, just leads to bickering. i didnt say TO’s can suck a dick, i didnt say they havent done shit for us, i didnt say the blazblue TO couldnt do with his pot bonus what he wanted, but the fact of the matter remains, this is not some black and white issue just because im the player, and not the TO. unfortunately no TO is going to come up and challenge any of this because the big wolf on the block has basically already spoken, and many will follow suit out of respect, plus its not a lot to ask, but in a way its tyranical. to me when evo spoke out against any tourney that doesnt support an anti colluding law, i thought that was a kick in the face for TO’s who have done this almost just as long. like is evo really telling larry what he can do with final round, and if he doesnt, he cannot get any front page shine. i felt the evo staff over stepped their boundries enforcing rules of theirs to any and every tournament from a weekly to a major. as if an anti colluding rule means anything whatsoever. lol
the ridiculousness of enforcing that rule during a match is nothing short of hilarious, unless you have two players in top 8 just doing jab jab jab combos in sf4 instead of full max damage combos. who is someone to come in and tell you to not be nervous, pick your shit (to which they have ZERO idea of what you are capable of), and play just as good as they want you to play.
slightly offtopic, but i find it hilarious chris g has played his sub team and destroyed people with wesker/ryu/hawkeye, but there was so much butt hurt when the collusion thing first got a lot of ground, and he would pick that team. in hindsight, hes beaten the best players with that team, so when is he really sand bagging.
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[details=Spoiler]nope, semantics. tournaments need players period. any other dissection of that to me is just useless nitpicking. a tournament could have a thousand trolls enter, and thats fine, because its better then footing a ten thousand dollar or more bill with NO ONE. not that, that extreme example would actually ever happen, but the hypothetical goes to show that, no, tournaments NEED players, period. the quality of them is a different discussion.
you cannot say nobody is gods gift to the tournament scene and the things move on without us, and not include TO’s. just say how you feel, no player is gods gift to a tournament, we dont need anyone who goes against the grain, dont want them, and would prefer hundreds or thousands of people to come sign away their freedom to have fun at a tourney they paid to enter. [/details]
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i never said evo didnt have this rule. lol. i said they are enforcing it outside of evo if you want some type of shine via the evo name and sponsorship, and free srk marketing, which is yup, new. all other majors just went with the flow. nobody was having people sign off on themselves to enter a tournament. the rules were there, and you just knew what was good. hell, a couple of these majors are relatively new themselves.
[details=Spoiler]we like entering tournaments, but lets not sit here and front as if majors is the only thing that counts to a true competitive fighting game player, because thats simply not true. i dont ever want to not see majors, ever. please, keep em coming. but i know that a majority of my fighting game time was spent at weeklies, casuals at friends like 12 deep a few times a week, and monthlies. the majors was the big dog shit that of course you wanted to show up to, but that wasnt the only thing you lived and breathed for. money matches also happened outside of majors. majors have been our shit, and always will be. i commend those guys for all the hard work, and have personally. but if we’re going to start shitting on players, and create that type of us vs them environment, then maybe its time fighting games die off againf or a little bit, and everyone get their shit back together, because clearly this seems to be going to some peoples heads.
i know none of this is rocket science, and no i should not have to run a tournament for at least a year to have an opinion. thats nothing short of ridiculous.
i know your responses painted me to seem like i hate TO’s, for those who will not read what i said at first, to only further fit their own beliefs and not be challenged, but i never said i hate TO’s, theyre useless, we dont make enough money, blah blah blah that has been said by many others.
im just saying, this isnt us vs them, and its becoming that over nothing. this fg tournament shit isnt so simple as to dismiss all who challenge the norm as just ignorant to the fact, dumb, spewing ad homenims, and thinking this is rocket science. its just simply a reality. a sensitive subject yes, but a reality that only digs the whole deeper in the wrong path as we continue do bully and dismiss people with alternative opinions and ideas.
because like i said before, the norm for us right now is still that almost all of us still enter a tourney to just try our best, learn new stuff, hang, and enjoy the show. we’re still doing that. all this collusion talk is getting more energy then it needs, but mainly because if anyone says anything outside of, “fuck those assholes, they should be banned for wasting peoples time”, you get shitted on, even if you make some decent points.[/details]
You’d think it’d be so simple. Split the pot AFTER you’ve played out the match in earnest. Or at least act like you’re taking it seriously. Making a mockery of the grand finals like that is effectively a giant FUCK YOU to everyone in the tournament (not just the players, but the T.O. and the spectators there as well). Not to mention that you’re wasting everyone’s time and money.
And if you’re gonna be trolling in the grand finals of a Blazblue tournament, you should be playing Hazama instead of Izayoi.
I love having moral debates when the arguement is:
“You can’t tell them how to play” versus “They shouldn’t waste other people’s time”
If people are fucking around they get DQ’d, probably banned form future tournies for X amount of time.
If you’re really at a loss for what to do and you’re a TO, just use the magic infraction procedure guide. Ignore everything about magic, focus on the tourney rulings. Also ignore the bit about “no gambling” because this is the FGC, there will be side-bets.
If my buddy and I make it to GF, we play each other all the time, know the matchup very well, do we really want that match to be streamed so people have more intel about us? I think it’s smart to limit that exposure by playing secondary characters.
I think people are getting so upset because this is really the battle for the future of the FGC. There are people who want it to “become” something that it currently isn’t. Look at all the comments, “oh fighting games are never gonna be taken seriously if we don’t stop this, blah blah.” What’s implied is, we have a vision of what the FGC could be. Most people don’t really have a problem with that, the question is, at what expense? Is the FGC going to be something that is owned by its participants or will it become “eSports”? The comparisons between poker tourneys and baseball games are very relevant. Players pay their own way to get to these tournaments for the most part. They are not like baseball games in an organized league, they are like poker tournaments. I agree with those who have said, if you don’t like the way someone plays when they get to GF, you should get better and beat them next time, and then it will be you in GF.
In part a lot of the blame has to go to professional sports for creating the entitled fan mentality. Pro sports teams WANT you as a fan to think of yourself as a participant even though you are clearly not. They value you as a fan because they’re legally obligated to behave this way, as corporations turning a profit for their owners. Should pro or semi-pro players have the same attitude towards fans? That’s their business…but it bears repeating: spectators are NOT participants. If nobody tunes in to watch the streams, maybe a lot of people’s dreams of turning the FGC into more of a career-generating industry will die, but as a player what do I care? I don’t share your dream, sorry. :\
Don’t forget that Shinsyn has the right to do what he wants with the money. It’s a two-way street.
Also, why work hard to get to Grand Finals and then throw it all away just to troll? It’s a waste of everyone’s time, including the troll’s.
Even if it is “First World Problems” and not E-Sports, people put a financial and emotional investment into the event. There is a difference between doing what you want with the money and being completely selfish. Plus, the two people said they were colluding on stream, that has no justification in my book.
If a person switches to their secondary, they should be a viable Secondary.
Good Ex. Dakou using DeeJay at Canada Cup, cool because he did basic things with the character correctly and he showed that he actually put time into learning DeeJay’s options. He also won a lot with DeeJay.
Bad Ex. Jwong putting Phoenix on point against Noel Brown in Marvel 3 like 2 years ago so he could help Noel get farther in the tournament and win EVO points, not only was that not even a character Justin is known for using or practicing with, everyone who even looks at Marvel knows Phoenix should never be on point. That’s collusion.
What the fuck does “e-sports” or whatever have to do with this? Whatever happened to having some fucking integrity and maintaining the spirit of competition?
Those fools were lucky they got to continue their match. If we were really going E-SPORTS than those two would have been DQ’d on the spot. ShinSyn was right to take away the pot bonus from them after they outright admitted that they were planning on trolling Grand Finals.
And for those who are saying “oh they made it this far they’ve pretty much won they can do whatever the hell they want”
SHIT DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT, SON.
*
Tournament still in progress, you’re not getting a red cent yet.*
If I was Shin that cord would have been pulled and 3rd becomes first 4th 2nd ETC
Oh and Jimmy I’ve been playing since 03, I’m as far as you can get from a stream monster. I’ve seen scenes suffer fucking hard and crumble due to collusion. You’ve been around a minute, remember how hard Marn fucked the GG scene with his shit at Texas Showdown? Yeah this shit affects more than just stream monsters. Tons of people at Frost Faustings who played were mad, when Chris and Justin trolled that Texas tournament people left in disgust and were mad as hell.
Let somone try to do some shit like this at an event I’m at. I don’t give a fuck if you’re Wong, Chris, Champ, Johnny Donuts or Jesus himself I will do everything I can to make sure the hammer is brought down.
What is your problem? Once you’ve lost, tournament’s over for you so what do you care? I’m being honest here. SMH…
I don’t need to make “excuses,” people can act how they want and if you don’t like it that is your problem and nobody else’s. Nobody should ever feel like they need to EXCUSE their behaviour. Why would they play their secondaries the whole time if that doesn’t give them the best chance to win?
I just do not understand what stake anybody but the two remaining players has in it! This is a serious question. Once you’ve lost, you no longer have a stake in the event. And we know stream monsters have no stake in the event. So who does? The TO? Once the tournament’s underway you’ve already got everything you’re entitled to out of it. If as a TO you’re organizing the tournament for some benefit or whatever, that’s your business, but I can’t understand why anyone should expect players to give two fucks about what kind of show they put on. They are there to play, period.