I allowed the Training room Brad to hit me with 6P and then tried to defend between the 3 different random mix-up.
first by just standing P.
P beats everything except ducking PPPP. After the normal hit, Brad’s ducking P string will beat out any jab
2nd. sidestep. Evading defeats everything but Throw
Finally 2P. beats everything but ducking K+G
So after using ducking P string, which is the safest option, make note of what your opponent does. Get him scared of pushing standing attacks after you go into ducking.
blocking/sidestepping-use a throw
crouching/2P- use K+G follow it up with 33P 9KK or a better character specific combo.
Not on normal or counter hit from an elbow. In fact, I’m having a difficult time finding any strike that the throw will pass through. According the VFDC, the throw has 4 frames of active frames, but even the slowest attacks are beating the throw, from any transition I am using normal or counter hit.
ducking P string seems to be the best bet, to scare the opponent into not pushing buttons. once they fear ducking P, they will most likely move on to 2P which is where ducking K+G comes into play.
Yeah I was reading that guide, looks like its based on advantage. I think ducking p+g needs to be used in specific frame settings. I don’t know what its startup is though, nor what the total frame timing of ducking is.
I’m not sure if any of the ducking transitions give enough advantage to use the catch throw. It might be better to go into ducking manually by 6P+K+G
From my own lab work, it seems that going into ducking off of a normal hit elbow, which is even on hit, leaves you at -14, counter hit elbow leave brad at +7 and going into ducking leaves him at -7.
The thing is though, there’s only three throw breaks now, no throw clash and their weaknesses still remain. Don’t get me wrong, they’re still a great option, but full circular moves also now get CH when they catch evade, and lows still serve as basic anti-fuzzy guard to begin with. The good ones are at least low enough - that you can still attempt fuzzy yourself. imho it says something when you look at how often Jap players will sweep in FS compared to older VFs.
Ok. After more testing. I have found that CH 4K leads to guaranteed ducking throw, standing P will not beat it. This was tested on brad vs brad. I’ll do more testing on the rest of the cast and see if anyone has a faster jab than brad. 4K does push back quite a bit on block and hit, so you have to be close when performing the 4K which could be risker since it is a somewhat slower attack.
slipping K+G does give you insane frame advantage on block, hit and counter hit. +12 on counter hit to be precise, guaranting a P starting combo, or a throw attempt. however, I couldn’t shift manually into ducking and then get the throw without a jab beating me.
Given what you’ve said, low circular may be useful. But even if you beat fuzzy guard with 2+K, all you get is some piddly damage, and you’re at a disadvantage again. Besides some lows like Goh’s 3+K+G, I don’t see much use for them. But then I’m barely above scrub level now…
All done in brad mirror, I’m focusing on my brads adv though
I tried ch 6p against a. P spamming bot, even at +7 I can’t catch P with that throw, and duck k+g loses to P as well, also duck against brads ppp will sometimes duck completely and allow block as I come out of it, sometimes I get hit by a p during duck. Though the duck p string definitely beats that.
is that throw a catch throw in this version, and if so, how exactly does it work?
Duck after CH 6p is -13, so duck takes 20 frames?
How did you get it off CH 4k? I keep getting hit. Got it, gotta duck with 4k
Duck after CH 6p is at -7
If ducking puts you at -3 it will work, -7 won’t. Need to find the threshold.
Ducking k+g will beat p when at -7 though.
I can’t find anything else that leads to ducking with better than -7 on CH, I wouldn’t think block/normal hits would be better but ill try a few.
OK, I went to the lab and tested what people are saying about P after ducking/swaying. You CAN avoid a punch and get the catch throw afterwards. You can’t BEAT the punch. For example, do 6+P into ducking. Don’t press P+G as soon as possible. Wait until you see the punch come out, then P+G. You have a very small window to do it in. If you’re too late, you get the regular P+G throw. The same advice goes for attacking after duck/sway. Cancel into it as soon as possible, and every attack you try will get hit. Wait til the last possible second, and you’ll avoid the high punch.
I found that which attack you use to transition into duck/sway matters too. Do 4+K from the right distance and its very easy to avoid a P. Do it close to your opponent and its a lot harder.
I think it catches but if you duck throw into a punch the startup gets hit. So it catches in the idea that if they press attack it will still throw during active frames where regular throws don’t?
A catch means that as long as the throw hits first, it will pass through a strike. Remember, even if a 10 frame throw goes against a 30 frame attack the throw will still lose as strikes always beats throws, even during execution frames. a catch throw ignores that rule.
since ducking K+G is -10, it means it’s only throw punishable for the most part, there are some exceptions, but just buffer a throw escape into your guard and defend against one of the three possible throws. know which characters throws direction does the most damage, for instance vs wolf ALWAYS throw break with forward, burning hammer and giant swing both are half life you die throws and end in forward.
one thing about 4K is that it changes your stance from open to close or vice versa, this will affect whatever combo you will do after the K+G hits not even my universal braindead combo of 3PP 9K works in open stance.
Any good follow-ups after Phasing Hook (Ducking -> P+K -> :u: or :d:+P)? I think a side throw is OK, but I’m wondering if I could land anything better than that.
