thank u for effectively proving my point lol
Phoenix on point is pretty much you accepting you don’t want/need Dark Phoenix.
Not that every phoenix player should RELY on dark phoenix (if you can’t properly use phoenix, then you’re gonna get timed out if you’re not good enough to catch your opponent), but it’s nice to have dark phoenix because dark phoenix + lvl3 xf is seriously the cheapest thing in the game. Phoenix is a good character, she has a ton of great tools, no doubt. But lvl3xf dark phoenix literally takes the work out of having to play the game.
Well the reason you should always play for D.Phoenix is because D.Phoenix technically gives you a 4 character team. Just the odds of being able to win with an extra character no matter how low their health is is good odds. It was funny seeing people complain about Sentinel when I tried out Dark Phoenix early before the game came out. I was like “uh oh…Sentinel is just ok now”.
yeah, i only started phoenix because i had more fun playing her on point then as a 3rd character. honestly i fucking hate dark phoenix and wish they would delete it and put regular phoenix with more health
If they did this I would be happy as well. I still feel like she would be “the best” because now she has access to meter whenever she needs it. It would be like having +1000000 due to healing field :lol:
Dark Phoenix is cool though.
I have a Phoenix starter team that actually works pretty well, Phoenix/Storm/Morrigan. I started playing this team as a training team because my Phoenix wasn’t very good at first and I thought it would be fun just to mess with people online. It actually seems to work out pretty well as long as you have the right matchups, actually it works out better than my real team on Zero. The strategy of this team isn’t that complex. If Phoenix makes it to 5, I’ll play for the OCV. If she doesn’t, Storm/Morrigan play well together, they have the DHC glitch and can get to over 900k without Morrigan using any extra meter herself. Morrigan provides meter for Storm hail meaning that they can’t run from Storm and it turns the game into an inclose match. If Phoenix doesn’t make it, Storm sitting on 2-4 levels of meter with XF2 ready to load up guarantees between 400-900k of chip (depending on character options to avoid it, how much meter you’re currently stocking, etc). Morrigan to Storm is decent also, etc. If Phoenix does make it and Dark Phoenix dies, she restocks meter for Storm.
The strategy of this team is pretty simple as far as Phoenix teams go. Storm will give you a left-right mixup (not a good one but a credible one at least), Morrigan builds meter meaning you should be expected to get to level 5 by 75 seconds remaining, 60 at the worst case scenario. Using similar chemistry you can sub in Magneto for Storm (better character in his own right, weaker mixup for Phoenix, weaker chip) or sub in Ammy for Morrigan (not as good an assist for meter building purpose, significantly better on point).
I think there are some strategic benefits to starting Phoenix, namely that she’s the best possible character vs. Wolverine and probably the best possible character vs. Zero also, two matchups that are pretty important to the game. It’s not a long term strategy because there are too many characters like Ammy, Dante, Magneto, Akuma who blow up regular Phoenix who you will run into, but I think if you like Phoenix you should just try out a couple Phoenix starter teams just to exploit the positive matchups she has.
At some point I’ll play it in a tournament as a counter pick, I have that much faith in it.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
Interesting team, but doesn’t this create a huge risk in the opening of the match? I mean, by no means is it as scary as something like MvC2 Magneto switch-glitch c.lk, but you’re in jeopardy at the beginning due to 1 frame throws as well as a quick assist that can beat out typhoon and lead to a dead Jean. I do like how this team is structured with the contigency of Phoenix down, I think the best Phoenix teams are ones that not only aid her but perform well with her gone (IE can properly utilize the newly available meter). I just don’t think the risk-reward is in your favor in that situation even taking into account character matchups.
Against Wolverine I can see how a smart Phoenix can win. I see the matchup against Zero as very similar, you can play a safe airborne zoning game against the two, the problem arises when you land and have to deal with their mixups and priority. The issue I see with Zero is even when jumping, Phoenix can be shot out of the air by a charged buster shot, and Genei Jin unblockables I think are scarier than Berserker Charge. If Phoenix blocks one overhead against a cloned Zero, she MUST crossover counter or XF cancel or die immediately. I actually think Zero’s worst matchups are against characters with similarly insane priority (Wolvie/Dante/Task). I think Wolvie loses to smart zoning with the proper assist.
Viscant, why do you believe Jean is good against Logan and Zero?
I have to agree with Viscant on this one, Jean is good against Wolvie and Zero. She can superjump and throw out a fierce orb to pretty much kill their rushdown. I’m not 100% on this but I think the medium trap generally beats out air combos as well since it activates when you sj cancel a launcher.
I don’t normally play Phoenix on point but I’ll have her come in with Tron assist once I get my meters. Orb -> fly -> teleport -> blockstring + Tron assist gets annoying fast, and if you see that they’re holding down-back, you can tag them with an overhead for a free combo. To be honest though, Phoenix has some pretty good meter-building combos and once you get the hit in, you can rest assured that you’ll be building 1, maybe 2 meters with your combo.
okay viscant has storm second as i did, probably for the same reason: the 0 frame hail dhc for safety against random supers and bad situations. against akuma’s beam the hail dhc will trade and let you do a third hailstorm if you want. i tried phe/storm/morrigan early on actually and i felt like i didn’t like the meter build much and my morrigan is ass on point so i switched to what i thought was a better assist at the time, chris’s uzi. the whirlwind assist is great for zoning as it pushes them fullscreen too.
i soon realized that the drones imo are the best assist for her, i foudn that her zoning game provides her with plenty of meter anyway. with storm + sentinel after phoenix if phoenix gets tagged i have a dhc trick combination and tons of meters. if i somehow get sent in with storm second, the team super with sent + storm is 0 frames and covers the whole screen and combos off a mouthbeam and can be easily done on reaction to a ton of shit just because its 2 buttons (and i was pretty good at this because i spent a long time playing shitty bb hood + juggernaut team super teams on mvc2). but yeah the oki with drones assist after a phoenix combo is godlike, teleport during their rolling so that the crossup teleport uncrosses up during their roll while drones are out, or airdash c, trijump and low. tons of shit. and you can airthrow reset all over the corner too. when they are airteching backwards you can do the teleport behind outside of the corner and it will uncross up or you can do it and dash under or you can do it late or all sorts of shenanigans, dash under after a reset and the square jump back across pressing the c. phoenix on point is still my favorite shit… also if you wanna use supers the drones assist lets you easily combo 2 supers with phoenix
phoenix on point is good with dante assist too, he’s great for extending her combos and he controls so much space
its not mvc2 so you can walk backwards fast enough to avoid the starting situation except against i think akuma because of his super fast retarded walk speed (which is one of the many reasons he is a bad matchup for her.)
fuck akuma i fuckin hate akuma
I’'ve been starting to start Jean in order to train. When you’re playing with her in the back normally there are 3 scenarios:
- She gets snapped in… and your goal is to GTFO or get scraped.
- You bring her in at level 5, and any damage she does before she dies is a bonus.
- She’s the last character standing and your opponent is afraid to hit buttons to turn her dark.
If your Jean Grey only gets play in these situations, it’s going to be a long road to level her up.
If you really want to focus on her, just go to training mode and spar with a friend w/ infinite life on.
ok i played a good player online and he snapped in my phoenix immediatly . Like used his one bar and snapped her in. She never left the match. her teleport shenanigans with mags disruptor and dooms plasma beam/ hidden missles can be a real pain. Also she can sit back an jus throw traps and fireballs
hmmmm… yeah well, i like you guys also thought of phoenix first teams… but can we REALLY get some talk of whether or not this can work consistently and also what her best assists/teammates are? i read viscants post. very smart team for a reverse dph team in that it has morrigan assist.
but i was thinking… how about phoenix second? and also not with the intent of building to DPH? ie always trying to have healing field up or using that broken super of hers? as it is, if a good mag user used mags first, phoenix second… that might be a good team. mags builds a ton of meter and can glitch to phoenix, who can be the user… basically the oldschool battery/user/assist build. if glitch takes place it means that phoenix comes in safely and may even have some healing field left over after combo to continue rushdown?
weakness of the team would be LOW hp with mags and phoenix… this team could get taken out in 20 secs… but it could also do some taking out.
anyway, just wondering if there were any players using alternative phoenix builds seriously. its something ive wanted to do since this game came out but, i was never a good enough player to think i could do it.
-dime
I get blown up by Doom’s Hidden Missile assist. Basically they just turtle (often in the corner) till I make a mistake while calling out Hidden Missiles. If I get hit, it’s easy hit confirm into her death combo. That’s my main worry. Tatsu assist is also tough but manageable if I knock them down to set up oki.
i really feel like phoenix needs an “escape dhc” (like hail) after her so keep that in mind.
of course when i played that team this was at the time that it wasn’t obvious that “storm is ass” (or at least that’s the popular opinion now).
I can’t play Mags for shit, but you can get away with a less effective version of what you propose just by switching the order to Storm/Phoenix/Morrigan. Storm’s damage and meter build is ass compared to Magneto, but with Dark Harmonizer, you can effectively run away and build meter Marvel 2 style since float allows her to call assists even after a super jump. Even if you lose Phoenix early, Storm and Morrigan work together really well, so you’d still have a shot based on that.
DHC Trick combos into Phoenix, especially if she can burn more than one bar, do obscene damage, even after something like a Mustang Kick starter. The issue with Phoenix second over point is mostly that this brings you down an assist usable outside combos again. If you start Phoenix, and run Magneto second, you can always go for an air exchange into a Magneto combo, to DHC trick back to Phoenix. Second is definitely safer, but first gets you two usable assists at start.
^^^yeah that team seems kind of ok except for a couple of points:
- storm makes little meter.
- storm is backed by no good assist (way to risky to be calling phoenix out) so storm will have to play basically without assists. (but atleast for every 3 morrigans she gets a “free” hailstorm.
but i could definitely see the team working against certain teams/characters. having dhc glitch on phoenix is good as well.
perhaps with tac and phoenix on point instead it would be more viable…? phoenix tac to storm who dhc glitches back into phoenix who kills the character… builds meter and phoenix has an assist to work with?
what do you guys think is phoenixs best assists to help her out? theres always sent of course… he works on like EVERY team. tron… could be good to pump up team hp… tron last is kinda boo boo though imho. mags last(disruptor assist) seems like it could be insane… phoenix storm mags? hmmm…
im completly theory fighting here though. i dont even play phoenix… just wanted to see if she cpould be viable first or second in which case i will play her… i like her character alot… just dont really want to play an XF based phoenix team.
-dime
I run Phx/Tron/Sent a lot. It works against a good chunk of lineups but really Phoenix rushdown doesn’t do anything Wesker rushdown can’t. I just tend to prefer the character more.
The key to a pheonix on point team is having two characters who do well together behind her but at the same time can DHC from her for nice damage if possible. i think dormmamu would be a nice second character for a number of reasons: he builds a shit load of meter, both of his supers are good and damaging eg. pheonix combo, sun super, hard tage pheonix back with ur opponant being hit and recovering still you can set traps ect.
I think a well balanced Pheonix team is something like Pheonix, Dormmamu, Doom or the team im thinking of using: Wesker, Pheonix, Doom where i will mix between saving for bar and using it effectivly using the threat of dp to scare an opponent then finish them with supers when they get caught trying to kill Pheonix or run.
Pheonix dosent really need an assist; not even on point to cover her teleports because ur main form of attack and defense is H fireball. Any time your opponant is about to catch you in recovery or startup, then you should imediatly super cancel as it acts like magnetic shockwave, pushing your opponant nearly full screen.
Teleports should only really be used as punishes. You can use teleport to punish non true blockstrings for example c.l, c.m, c.h speciall move in an attempt to punish special moves with recovery (but this comes down to knowing what moves your opponent likes to do). The main function of teleport is to stop opponants from doing ranged attacks effectively stoping your opponant from chiping you to death however if you predict to often your opponent can do nothing and attempt to punish the teleport.
As the behind teleport always leaves her on the ground behind wher the opponant was when you begain the teleport, this means that you can use you opponants forward movement to teleport behind them while they continue moving where you was.
When playing vs cheech wizard (using Haggar) he would slowly force me into the corner forcing me to make a very close call to get past him. But because he would jump forward and pipe i was able to predict this and be on the other side giving me a small but IMPORTANT amount of breathing space and i would then dash back into open space.
Being able to teleport around your opponant at the right time like this is very important but not at all risk free and in my matches vs cheech they were all hairy moments. He got me in the corner by forcing me into the air using Doom assist where i would throw fireballs. He would block and push block me at the cost of a tiny amount of chip he moved me closer and closer to the corner. I noticed to late to avoid losing however however i did get a chance to counter this by throwing two fireballs then dashing forward before the 3rd thus returing me to my original position.
In my opinion, I think Phoenix is excellent on point, mainly from a psychological point of view. Most people go in, guns blaring, and call their assists too, which is more than likely a projectile or beam. Most people forget about Phoenix’s most interesting and (to me) deceptive move: the Overdrive. Neutralizes all low priority projectiles and trades with medium priority, not that you’ll run into too many of those. You can eat a Sentinel Alpha/Beta assist alive and hit them with Phoenix Rage. It works almost every time. Of course, the trick is to not get predictable with it, otherwise you’ll find yourself getting eaten alive instead.
There was some guy playing Phoenix on point at Evo… and what he did was complete insanity and trolling, but also extremely rewarding when it worked.
Well, 99% of all MvC3 mash something as soon as the fight starts and most of them calls assists at the same time.
Phoenix Inferno is a super with invincible startup and quite a bunch of damage (320k for a lv1 is just INSANE)
Right after the “FIGHHHT” he’d just hyper, and more than not, hit his opponent… he did also hit the assist, and as soon as it hit, xfactored to recover from the super lag, and Phoenix’s hyper causes wallbounce.
Just after the xfactor, he tagged Magneto in, and comboed point and assist easily from wallbounce to kill both chars in a matter of seconds.
Unfortunately, I don’t remember the name of this player, but this strategy worked some times in a row against different people at evo…
I tried around here and it worked some times also, it’s fantastic, LOL!