Not that I don’t respect Daigo or don’t understand why he did it. But I never see anyone mention the fact that Daigo was showing off his skills when he baited the super and the parried the last hit jumping.
showing off? If he had stayed on the ground to parry, his strongest option would be hp>mp shoryu>super, but that obviously would not have been enough to kill Justin, Daigo KO’ed him with on the upside of the super, which does miniscule damage if you scaled into it. All Daigo did was just enough to win.
This thread should be closed. The utter amount of stupidity here is incredible. If people don’t like parrying then they should play SC2, T5, GGXX, or something else. :lame: :lame: :lame:
Sc2 even has more frames to parry attacks, and so does Doa.
Whoever said that parrying in CvS2 was easier than in SF3 must be doped out of their minds, u must be smoking some great pot. If parrying was that easy in CvS2 then it would be the groove of choice.
3s revolves around parrying to some extent, but players can also do other things. People that say parrying breaks the game are stupid. How many of you people can actually parry like the pros do? Not a lot of you that’s for sure, if not then everyone would be placing at tournies and the good players that usually win wouldn’t be where they’re at.
I don’t understand why people say parrying is bad? Is it ok to have unblockable setups, and no way to defend against them? Is it good to eat one lousy fireball and cheesed to death? NO!!!Parrying corrects these probs, adds depth to gameplay, and makes players evaluate their strategies.
People who complain about their loves fireball traps from SF2 are also dumb. If someone throws a fireball then use the invicibility frames from the dp, hurricane kick, or special moves in order to escape it. There are various ways of annihilating your opponent.
Throws still exist! U have to use them.
The biggest morons here are the people that say Parrying does not require skill: FUCK URSELVES STRAIGHT IN THE ASS!!! Good parries require anticipation, skills, and balls!!! BIG BALLS!!!DO U think that u can actually guess all those attacks, u can’t, only the cpu has that ability!
If u miss a parry guess what? U get hit!!! If u parry it does not mean u automatically get a 50% combo. First off you have to build meter, have the TIME to build it, have the skills to perform the good combos and then u have to find one specific situation where u can utilize the combo.
Parrying a c.lk does not give you a 50% combo, in fact it doesn’t give you an opportunity to attack at all. By the time u attack a c.lk the opponent will have time to block. Even if you do parry something like for example Yang’s fp, u still might be outside the range to attack.
Parrying also can be used by both people playing, get it!? U can also do the same thing your opponent does if you just use the cognitive ability of anticipation. With or without parrying people can use their pokes.
U don’t even need to parry in 3s, look at rushdown Yun and ken. Sure they parry time to time, but they don’t do it often as it isn’t in their games. They play offensively, unlike Q and Chun for example. Who cannot utilize their speed effectively and instead rely on defensive tactics such as parrying.
If u guess a parry you’ve risked your life against that 50% combo ranted about. Good players usually know the game inside out and this guessing game is non-existent for them. Baiting is different from guessing, players in 3s can bait opponents to parry their attacks and vice-versa.
Taking bar away from something as unsafe such as parrying is ridiculous! Someone posted this b4, but taking risks should give the risk taker pros, not cons this is what 3s does.
Steve’s the only chara that can do that…
If the name fits…
I’d like to point out that Wong got BAITED. No offense to Wong, of course…I, and over 90% of players would have done the same thing in his situation…but, watch that vid again, folks… Daigo was fishing for that super so he could parry it. I get the feeling that a few people didn’t quite see that. And, IIRC, Daigo was up 1-0, so if Wong had won, he would have only tied things up.
Denjin could be in SF3 without parries, just give it a long bar like Shin Shoryuken…Ryu could only land it after a knockdown/throw, so it’s not TOO unfair. Aegis would be hard to deal with without parrying, but if you changed it similarly, it wouldn’t be SO bad, though still too good. Also, Aegis is only in SF3 because of parrying, same as any number of other moves. Without parrying, it would have much more recovery time, or only have one range, or something like that.
I think people have the idea that all games before 3S were about throwing fireballs, or something. Like, Ryu could stand across the screen and chuck fireballs and the other guy would just have to throw his hands up in the air and be lik e"gee, whatever should I do???" Ryu standing two character lengths away and throwing fireballs is not some invincible strategy or anything, I’m not sure what’s up with a few of you guys.
Likewise, something that stuffs options does not always gives you more options; clearly, it will sometimes give you less. Makes sense, right? If I have an un-parryable move that I can throw at you from two character lengths away (ie. fireball or Sonic Boom), and an un-parryable move as anti-air which I can use if you jump…wow, that’s really had to get around, right? Throw your hands up in the air and look confused, everybody,te old games are so broken! Bad fireballs get more players killed than predictable pokes in SF3, and are worse than bad assist-calls in MvC2.
There is thinking involved when you have fixed variables (though that’s an oxymoron). Having certain tools to use in your various matches requires thought, you know? You have strengths and things you can do, and sometimes it works (Honda vs Bison), and sometimes it doesn’t (Honda vs Shotos). In other games, I feel like the character individuality, the things which make every match different, is bigger in the pre-3S games, as a general statement. This could just be because whenever you see 3S you see the same matches over and over. But, like I was saying, the part of the match where you tae YOUR moves, and go against the opponent with THEIR moves, is a good thing. Someties it doesn’t work out well, but it’s fun (and 3S has a few bad matches too). 3S is a little more homogenized.
In older games, if you get into a bad situation (like Daigo vs Wong), it is correct that there was no parry to save you. However, in older games, Ken could have DPd through the super to stop it, and made a comeback afterward, or super from that range if he had meter, or maybe even a neutral jump, as Chun Li’s super isn’t that fast in other games. Also worth noting that in other games, that super requies a charge, which would greatly alter the way SAII Chun Li plays, even with charge partitioning (how dire the situation was really has more to do with how crazy the super is). Or, he may have had enough health to alpha counter, or rolled, or, and this is the important one, he could have actually just not gotten into that situation in the first place. People seem to be happy that Daigo was able to get himself out of a bad situation (that he himself had placed himself into)…he could also have played better, as you were forced to do in older games. If you get knocked down, and have no health left, and then someone throws a fireall…let’s fire up the Wayback machine, because you lost 95% of your health BEFORE that, and then got KNOCKED DOWN. You screwed up. So sorry that you don’t have a parry to cover your final fuck-up, but there’s nothing really wrong with that.
Someone also said something silly about older games being about crouching medium attacks, and how 3S solves that problem…? Something like that…? I don’t suppose I have to actually address that?
While I’m posting, I should point out that this supposedly unique 3S mindgame that makes it so deep, is present in any number of other games.
-Will he throw, or poke? If I poke, will he counter?
That’s basically it in it’s entirety. This happens in other games, it’s just that the risks are higher; you have it with alpha counters, or V-ISM, or countering pokes with specials or or supers. There’s also the poke-vs-poke issue (my crouching Strong beats his sweep, but his standing Strong beats my crouching Strong, but my standing Jab beats his Strong, but loses to the sweep). Also, older games don’t have so pronounced of a hit-confirm option. You could have the same situation, but it generally wasn’t the focus of the game (though it happened to be in some matches).
So, you could really argue this mindgame was more evolved in the older games; if you wanted to beat a poke, and your only option was a special move, that was a risk. And if you tried to block or alpha counter, throws did more damage. And if you tried to counter with a super or VC or AC and were reversed, you lose meter (damage potential) and take damage. Also, walking speed was faster, even though there were no dashes, but you could obviously cancel attacks out of walking animation, whereas you can’t do that with dashes in 3S. Parry just makes the rest of the game not as good, and so the part which is still playable is focused upon. You may have noticed that the older options are, relatively, much less safe than tapping d+JP+SK.
Like I said in the other thread, parry was inserted so you don’t have to think about certain things. It’s not like everything from the old games is still present, and you have this new “mindgame” on top of it, making it super-deep. A lot of the stuff from the old games is just sort of neutered, and the new stuff isn’t so new, and isn’t so good.
Has anyone seen the video SFIII 0001 with dudley vs ryu? Parrying is used to the extremes there. Although I have a slight feeling the system direction might have been used. But if it wasn’t, it’s an absolute parry fest. Athe the start of the video he makes a full meter come back with only a pixel of life, thanks to parrying. Then at the end he parrys chun-li’s SAII first in the air, lands then continues to parry the whole thing 8-7-1. Although he misses the shinkuuhadoken on the end of his combo, but if he managed to cancel it it would have been an excelent finnish.
Oh. Well i didnt know. Shows how much of a T5 pro i am.
Even still, no one in 3s can dodge a retaliation move that hits everyone else.
Aoishi pretty much explained my point of view. Especially about using bar to parry, that would be crap.
please explain dodging a retaliation move… its hard for me to wrap my brain around that one for some reason.
if u mean dodging the counter attack after someone parries… there r alot of characters who can do that in 3s…
I’m not going to get into this in much detail because everyone has already made up their minds (haha) on this. But once again like I said earlier, what people think passes for “mind games” makes me cringe.
What parry does to the overall mind game of SF reduces the game to “I thought he was gonna do this, but he did that and I was surprised”. This is to SF/2-D fighting mind games what Green Eggs and Ham is to literature. The positional aspect of mind games is negated (poking to prod a jump/dash/run/crouch/lay down) because the strongest defensive aspect is still there. The distance element of mind games is mostly negated since the whole cast fights at the same distance.
Also to eliminate some common misconceptions in this thread.
–Parrying does not help balance. All 3 SF3 games have had a rigid top tier. 2 out of the 3 games have been horribly unbalanced almost solely because the #1 & 2 characters can use parry better than all the others. Were you to play CvS2 in all P groove (don’t do that), the top tier would be very rigid also (Cammy/Sagat then a 5-6 character 2nd tier). This is merely an excuse for laziness in game design and is completely wrong. People need to stop going there.
–Parry does not help character variety. The variety of character types is completely negated because parry would solve the character too completely. There is no character based around speed and pokes like Vega. There is no character based around pressure like Rolento. There is no character based around distance fighting like Dhalsim. There is no character based around projectile pressure like O.Sagat. These character archetypes are completely eliminated and in their place, more semi grappler characters are inserted. Parry does not promote character variety, it promotes homogenity.
Like I said I’m not going to get into too much detail here mostly because everyone’s minds are made up and not willing to listen to logic. It’s just like I said earlier. What people think passes for “skill” and “mind games” are why there will never be another great 2-D fighter.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
Lol my buddy Tj made that video. We have a small but dedicated 3s community here in Pittsburgh. But yeah he’s a very good parrier, and we’ve had our share of exciting parry comeback moments at our buddies appartment.
In all honesty you don’t have to parry to win in high level 3s. Most high level matches hardly boil down to "parry and then 50% combo :rolleyes: ". I’ve seen very few high level matches that were decided by parries.
Parrying is easy enough on wakeup when you can guess between high and low. But what if he decides to throw? Or do nothing at all? In the heat of a fight, you’ll be hard pressed to parry someone down unless you BAIT them into it, which can be done several ways but is still risky even then.
You cannot win matches just by parrying.** If you think you can expect to lose, alot.
Whoever is saying that all the best char. in 3s are command grab characters must be high. Chun/Duds/Urien/Ken don’t have command grabs. The only char. in the high tier are Yun and Makoto.
**unless you are Aruka, the japanese Ibuki god who parries everything
NO SYSTEM DIRECTION WAS USED IN THAT VIDEO, I ain’t a pussy lol! :mad:
Hey not dissing you, your parrying was awsome. I’ve never seen parrying like that, but the system direction has a random parrying option so it “could” have been used. But now I know it wasnt just makes it all that better. Actually I found that 8-7-1 more entertaining than daigo’s. It’s just the crowd and circumstances that made it hype. :karate: :tup:
oh shit viscant said so so it must be right.
I don’t wanna sound like an ass, because I have a lot of respect for your Marvel game, but what do u think is an acceptable mind game? WTF!!!
What??? This is the same in most games, 3d, 2d, heck with parrying or without parrying. You can still do the same things done in ST to some extent, but not exactly the same.
Wtf??? there is still character variety in 3s. Yun is based on rushing down. Chun-li is defensive poking. Hugo is grappling. Ken is rushing down with overheads and pokes.
Mind games differ from game to game and Parrying is the mind game of 3s.
Once again, this is exactly what I’m talking about. This is something I’ve been saying for years, but I don’t think people even know the definition of mind games anymore. “I thought you were going to do this but you did that” is a mind game in the same way that Green Eggs and Ham is a book. In other SFs/other 2-D fighting games a distance character will make sacrifices of damage (either for or against) in order to achieve the desired position. In almost all versions of SF2, playing Dhalsim involved a fair amount of getting hit on purpose just to get some kind of other objective. This is not in any game with parries. Why would it be? There’s not even a Dhalsim like character in the game because distance fighting is mostly irrelevant.
Also even in the mid-range game, there are FAR fewer multi-level setups. For example, ST Vega. A lot of the time I’m poking, I’m not trying to get any damage. If you happen to run into something, that’s fine. I’m just trying to move you out of that space. In 3s, this doesn’t exist. Why would you back up? You can’t damage me from back there. What would I gain by you jumping? You still have access to your strongest defensive option in the air and for some characters, you have multiple offensive options in the air also. I gain nothing from moving you. This is why there is no Vega-type character in SF3. He’d be less than useless. These are the types of things that this kind of game eliminates.
Also, even the most basic element of position is useless in this game except for combos. Because fireballs are mostly useless, you can’t really use the stage as a weapon in this kind of game. For example in ST, on Ken’s stage if I have a dominating FB, half the fight for me is trying to put you in the corner and then trying to stand on the dock pillar. By ceding that position to me, you probably lost the round right there. There’s nothing even REMOTELY close to that in any game with a parry. This dumbs the game down tremendously. You no longer have to worry about stopping my drive for position and avoiding this kind of strategy. You no longer have to think about whether or not I’m sacrificing damage for position or going out of my way for some kind of throw/move that will put you in the corner. This strategy is dead.
And on the topic of character variety, you completely missed the point. For the sake of argument, let’s say I agree with you. (You’re wrong by the way since 3 of the 4 characters you listed play as semi-grapplers, but again, let’s say for the sake of argument that I agree) These character archetypes are in other 2-D games, but all those other types of characters that can’t be put into a game with a parry are in too. Even pretending I agree with you, that’s less than 1/2 the character variety that shows up even in half-assed 2-D games like CFJ and CvS1. For better games like ST, CvS2, a couple versions of KoF, that’s probably less than 1/3.
As I’ve been saying before, this is why 2-D fighting is mostly dead. Why would you even bother putting out another 2-D fighting game when even the enthusiasts of the game don’t really understand what makes 2-D fighting work.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
I guess Remy can be projectile pressure, and Makoto as normal kind.
If you’re being sarcastic then I’m amused. If you’re not, then there are even more SF terms that you need to brush up on.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
i really disagree with u on fighting for position. with low tier characters like twelve and remy being where u r makes up the majority of there strategy because most of there damage comes from being in range to do stuff to the opponent while safely being far enough away to anticipate them coming through whatever u put up for them in the first place. up side to this is they get hit less often, bad side is they dont do strong damage unless they have bar, or u get a clear anti air.
them being low tier is based on the fact that they dont do gobs of damage from those far ranges (but with patience it makes playing the characters that way the safest form). this makes the player become extra anal about being in position and out of range (making the character a deep ranged type).
parrying wouldnt work in sf2 because the way sf2 plays its so great because the options are so LIMITED. 3rd strike has alot more options so normal strategies that worked in sf2 must evolve to include what the player has access to. i think players themselves r still getting better and the game is actually starting to include what was lost in sf2 at first. the range games r there (walk back and forth distance, dash distance, and full lov throw distance, twelve distance)
the dock pillar is an interesting piece of info, that kind of spacing can also be used in remy’s stage (the pillar in his stage). if remy is at the pillar and the opponent is towards the right corner of the screen thats great position to have a nice lov pattern for someone to fall/jump/dash into towards u.