On impact freeze and hit or blockstun after single attacks or in combos

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
21

Sup, Ganelon. Well, after some tests in S2, what I had obtained was:[LIST]
[]blockstun[LIST]
[]same as hitstun for reversals and throws;
[]one frame longer for normals and jumps;
[]even longer for walking;
[/LIST]
[]hitstun[LIST]
[]fixed: after it ends the character can do specials, throws, jumps or simply walk.
[/LIST]
[/LIST]It is kind of late in Brazil atm, so I am calling it a night. If someone else wants to help, be known you are welcome.

Edit: I had also verified that jumping attacks do not have different impact freeze properties. It is still one frame longer for the defender for first or single attacks. In addition to it, I had verified that all further attacks in long combos do have the same 1-frame-shorter impact freeze for the character being hit.

22

Ah, looks like I should read better and be more diligent on my own tests. Those are very interesting results that only normals and jumps must be delayed one frame for blockstun. I don’t recall ever hearing about that before so kudos for that observation. Looks like it gives folks one more reason to master their reversals since it’s universal timing.

23

Good to see all this stuff being clarified. How do I go about doing these things frame by frame? Is there anything special that I need (I currently have ggpo and several SF games on my laptop)?

24

Kawaks and HSF2. A USB stick or pad of some sort is probably also useful since there aren’t that many keys Kawaks has set to combine inputs.

25

Does Kawaks already have the frame by frame mode built in? Thanks for the quick replies btw.

EDIT: I got it working but all I see are turbo 1,2, and 3. I seem to have the southeast asian one and turbo 1 seems to have frame skip. Do I need an american one for turbo 0/no frame skip?

26

HSF2 results for jab or short, single hits:

On hit
[LIST=1]
[]15th frame: dummy still locked
[]16th frame: dummy gets pushed back
[]18th frame: Ryu retracts his leg
[]22nd frame: Ryu recovers
[]24th frame: reversal (button must be pressed at the transition to this frame)
[]27th frame: dummy recovers.
[/LIST]

On block
[LIST=1]
[]15th frame: dummy still locked
[]16th frame: dummy gets pushed back
[]18th frame: Ryu retracts his leg
[]22nd frame: Ryu recovers
[]24th frame: reversal (button must be pressed at the transition to this frame, does not work for jumping and walking)
[]28th frame: dummy recovers
[]29th frame: dummy can jump
[]42nd frame: dummy can walk
[/LIST]

This shows a difference for HSF2 and S2: in S2 a reversal throw on block is safe in the sense if you time it perfectly, the enemy gets thrown if in range and vulnerable, or nothing comes out. In HSF2, a normal will come out if a perfectly timed reversal throw is attempted and the enemy is not throw-able.

I only got one reversal frame, the transition from the 23rd to the 24th.

Second hits make impact freeze one frame shorter for the defender, moving the reversal frame to the previous one.

Edit: ok, this is weird: now the game is at the second round and reversal normals on block don’t work anymore. Go figure…

27

Very interesting analysis oldschool, I was always puzzled how weak attacks link to heavier attacks in S2 on 1st hit condition (example Ryu non-meaty low short into S.Fierce in S2) but it rarely works in ST possible due to frame skipping or Capcom simply changed the hit/block stun properties by a single frame.

Did you actually test this in HSF2 against S2 versions (not O.ST) ? back in the old days we believed that in S2 there was less push-back effect after hit than in ST making some combos possible in S2 but not ST for example Ken’s Air Hurricane kick combos against Boxer/Sagat.

28

I have thought about doing push-back tests, but for now I haven’t. I highly doubt push-back would change among old or new characters: it is a game engine thing. But it may be different between the two games. Still, the lower speed does make some things much easier. For instance, Zangief has a quite straightforward 50% combo in S2: standing jab xn.

Edit: now a sort of curious thing: I had not mentioned in the previous posts, but what is called impact freeze in this topic actually includes not only the period the character is locked and shaking left and right, but a pre-freeze period where it can move or animate. This is the period that is shorter in HSF2 and ST/X, and makes impact freeze overall - pre-freeze and proper freeze - one frame shorter in the latter games, even with no frame skipping. During this pre-freeze period, the score has already been granted and nothing will avoid the damage, but one may check the character entering block animation if the player being hit was just a tiny bit late hitting backwards with the stick. However, as he has been hit, he takes damage and enters an on-hit proper impact freeze regardless, not an on-block one.

29

I was doing some testing in HSF2. Fireball collision boxes seem to be appearing in a buggy manner @startup frames ? Am I using an older script ?

30

I have tried short attacks and could not notice a difference. As for the aerial tatsu combos, characters recover (1 frame) faster than in S2, so Sagat recovers after the second hit of the tatsu and can block the descending part of the attack in ST. Not to mention it is much harder to do juice kicks due to the speed. I also do not know if jumping arcs take part in it: I have not tested S2 against ST jumps. But it seems related to recovery time, pretty much.

31

ST.Shoto’s have more pre-jump frames than Old/S2/CPS1 versions, I remember testing it long ago. I’ll test other characters tonight and post here :). Keep up the good work Old school.

32

On the game’s data

Impact freeze for the attacker: 15 frames
Impact freeze for the defender, first attack of a sequence or block string: 16 frames
Impact freeze for the defender, further attacks of a sequence or block string: 15 frames

Some curious fact is that jumps and specials take one less frame to be processed than normal attacks. If you press a button, 4 frames later you will see a normal, but if you move the stick up, it will come out 3 frames later.

When you recover from a normal attack, you can not attack right away. But by throwing, anyway. That is to say, at the first frame after a normal attack, you can throw, block or jump, but not walk or obtain specials. The next frame, normal and special attacks can also be used, but there is something about it, which is due to specials coming out before grounded normals, there is a chance the special will fail due to that frame where attacks do not work, and the next frame the game will try a normal. That is to say, if you enter the command for a special move, you will obtain the normal if you pressed a button, or nothing if you have used negative edge. However, if you try it one frame later, than the special will come out.

There are normals which present extra recovery: for such normals, the first frame after the animation completes is basically part of the recovery: the character does not move, can not obtain specials and can not block. The next frame is the same as above: the character can only jump, block or throw. Similarly, he can obtain normals and specials*(see paragraph above) at the next frame.

A number of Ryu’s normals present the extra recovery property, which is why he can not immediately attack after most crouching attacks. For instance, it may look like he could link most normals after a cr.short or jab, but he can only do cr.jab, cr.short or cr.short, cr.jab for 2-hit link combos. It is impossible to link, say, a crouching roundhouse after a non meaty crouching short or jab. This certainly happens for other characters, so if people can check them, we could get 100% accurate data on all normals of the game.

The recovery of special attacks is different. It depends on the special attack used. For examples, check my Ryu’s frame data post.

33

I always thought the point of a sac throw is that you walk forward during their jump arc, so that their attack connects higher up on your character’s body, in attempt to break their blockstring/combo; it now takes them longer to reach the ground after the jump attack’s hitstun begins. This allows you to throw them out of the startup of their next (grounded) attack, which they robotically input anyway because they’re expecting it to be airtight. It’s important that you actually take the hit (rather than block it at the last possible moment) not only because hitstun is shorter than blockstun for medium and heavy jump attacks, but also because it prevents pushback from shoving you both apart.

Thanks for posting your results, Oldschool. I went back to the original thread to see who had done that hitstop test with Ryu’s rush punch against jumping Ken, and it turns out that was you too. :lol:

oh my god this thread is awesome, i had read this before in a couple of other places and i had always just passed it off as a typo

34

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Watch the first match, YuuVega against the Honda player, to see Yuu take the hit to get a free throw a few times. He even takes the hit when he’s backed into the corner to avoid Honda’s oichio loop.

35

So just to clarify: the risk/reward of taking the hit to gain the relative (not absolute) +1 frame advantage is worth it? It seems like it wouldn’t be in the long term.

36

You avoid getting thrown and you get a free throw for yourself. If you block Honda’s splash at mid screen you almost always get command thrown automatically. If you are in the corner and block the splash you get command throw looped until you die. Dictator has to take the hit in tons of matches unless he has a super. He has no reversal attacks and characters like Dhalsim, Honda, and Blanka can easily tick him out of range and then throw him for free. If you aren’t taking hits on purpose against characters with larger throw ranges, in situations where they can set you up for free throws, then you are only making things harder on yourself if you play Dictator.

37

That must be why I keep losing :-\ I do normally try to block then counter throw Honda’s cross up splash after his bear hug, and I’ve never managed to get a counter throw which has been frustrating, so this is really useful to know that I should take the hit - thank you!

Does taking the hit against Blanka’s j.short work to avoid his st.strong into bite too?? And what about Sim’s slide into noogie??

38

You might as well block Blanka’s j Short and Dhalsim’s Short slide due to hitstun/blockstun being the same length since they’re light attacks. If it’s j Forward or Forward slide, then yeah, you will have frame advantage if you take the hit. But I agree with deadfrog, taking the hit is more useful to mess up the opponent’s timing and counter throw them during the jump’s recovery/next attack’s startup.

39

Many thanks.

40

What is “sac-throwing” ? taking a hit and then throwing? In which case, I’m surprised people thought that was a myth. I do it all the time and many people I play against do it. just from playing the game I “felt” that taking a hit from a jumping attack gave one extra frame of advantage, even though there was never any documentation about it.