(OLD) "Dear Doctor!" Ken Match-up and Insight: Ask a question, get an answer!

this tier lis is complete ass ken seems upper mid tier. And fei long is completly 5:5 and adon should be 6:4 ken. People just don’t know how to play him yet. And it seem like they made this list just based on the players they faced and not the actual characters
And wit fei long never let him do random half screen cw. Dp that shit. And fake firballs against him.
Don’t let guile whiff f+hp on u sweep him or if its spaced just right cr.mk. sometimes u could react to sonic boom with ex tastu. Mid range he is deadliest so watch it there and just inch forward and don’t be predictable with ur movement and don’t jump a lot. And when u get close enough u could start to focus through his attacks kara focus is amazing when ur close and I always go straight for the jump in mixups because its really hard for him to get out. And from fullscreen and anywhere out of his jumping range trade fbs and kara fb. Eating an ex sb I just u having to change up ur fb rhythm. And imo I wouldn’t really throw ex fb until the actuall fb start trading right in front of guile.
And only throw fbs at blanka from fullscreen. Other than that inch forward slowly when he has charge and cr.fp his escape ball when he’s in the corner and all of his pokes up close u could just focus or let it whiff and punish wit step kick. And watch for hops though.

And for juri I thought all we needed was os sweep. If u mean os for the counters I don’t think we could do anything about them just bait them

I got one question thou is there any os we could do about goukens counters??

Correct me if iam wrong but isn’t makoto dp still 5 frames so we could still safe jump right?

No pressure man, take your time.

…Put the fear of throw in Gouken and the counters will stop. That’s your os. =D No different from Fuerte

If u do gurren as soon as akuma flip moves is bout to hit me will I get the full ultra or just a juggle? Cavy do it right now cause at wrk

Makoto vs ken feels 5 5 now.but u can’t jump on her after a f.srk cus her dp will trade and she gets a combo on trade.so the ftk works great.maybe crossup tatsu but her dp is legit now.but with no meter she’s still the same.her ex hyate breaks armor now and is safe on block from more then half screen.she’s a solid character but footsies fireballs and kara throws still give her truble.her ax kick is beter too but dp will beet it.but they can meety it n wakeup and make ur dp wiff or get stuffd so not an ez fight but nt too hard

I have another few questions.

  1. If I perform a cr.lk, cr.lp on a blocking opponent, will I always get the far.st.mp if I do it immediately afterwards?
  2. Does Ken’s far.st.mp hitstun/blockstun all characters in SSF4?

Cheers in advance,

G.

Ya u get full ultra if u time it right. make the screen freeze when he’s a little above u but. Remember to react to it cuz he could do other things to make his jump safe.

what are the changes for Ae i never looked lo

Hello guys, I have posted a j.hp setup in the Ken’s unblockable thread. I decided to copy what belongs to the matchup thread here, for the sake of organizing, Lol. Sorry if I was supposed to post this stuff in the other matchup thread, I just feel like this one is more active.

Setup is, forward throw, walk back ( a bit more than the regular unblockable j.hp spacing, shown in G77’s unblockable video ), then j.hp. Here is the outcome on certain characters:-

Cammy: J.hp hits crossup,cannot be crouched under. All spikes whiff. FIXED: Cammy can’t dash away.

Ryu: J.hp hits front, cannot be crouched under. All DP whiffs ( Tried auto-correct motion, DP still whiffs). Ryu can wake up Cr.mk under the J.hp, but can be punished on recovery. If ryu backdashes, ken lands behind and can punish him. Ryu can forward dash to get out.

Makoto: J.hp hits front, cannot be crouched under, but ken lands behind Makoto if she blocks it correctly . All her wakeup reversals whiffs. If she backdashes, ken will lands behind, so its punishable. Makoto cannot dash forward under the j.hp, she gets hit. ( I think this is the ultimate safe jump against Makoto in Super, Idk abt AE )

Dudley: J.hp hits front, cannot be crouched under. Uppercuts whiff. Dudley can backdash, but cannot forward dash.

Akuma: Exactly like ryu, but akuma cannot do a forward dash under the j.hp. ( Haven’t tested what happens if I OS tatsu, but I imagine it would auto correct in the wrong direction if akuma wakes up with teleport. ). Raging Demon whiffs.

Gen: Exactly like Dudley. Wake up super beats J.hp, both crane and mantis supers.

Guile: J.hp Hits front, cannot be crouched under. All flash kicks whiff. I don’t know why I never managed to do this setup before against guile, flash kicks used to beat it. Anyways, It’s kinda like the J.jab that forces flashkicks to whiff. Oh, and guile can backdash.

Elfuerte: J.hp hits front, but can be crouched under. DP and ultra 2 whiffs. Elfuerte can backdash, or Ex run straight to get out. interestingly, if he does an EX run backwards, ken lands behind him and can punish/grab him .

Balrog: J.hp hits front, cannot be crouched under. All reversals whiff. Rog can backdash away though. It’s similar to banan ken’s J.hp setup against balrog, but this one doesn’t look very ambiguous against balrog. So it’s better to go for G77’s unblockable J.hp, or banana ken’s crossup J.hp.

T.hawk: Same as balrog.

Dan: Koryuken auto-corrects , LOL!

I feel like making a video on this soon, so everyone can know that exact distance to make this setup success. I feel like it’s gna be really helpful.

What do I do against geif?

Throw happy geifs are well annoying, but as it is unblockable, so I’m reluctant to get in close, which throws my game off.

Any tips?

I try to play the matchup like non-fireball characters do, since Ken’s fireball is only safe really far.

Just throw or backdash in your blockstrings and play the poking game and learn his range and his tricks That lead into throw for instance I’ve played some gief that would whiff rh or greenhand right in front of u than spd. So when I see a greenhand coming I immediately block (just enough to block the first part if I were to hit) than got straight to dp or backdash. And if u really know its coming than nuetral jump and punish hard. (I think u may be able to get a full u1 or u2 off nj.fp)

What’s the best thng to do when you get an knockdown or untechable knock down on the gief?

IIRC when he doesn’t have meter he is safe-jumpable.
EX SPD has invulnerability, that’s why he’s not safe-jumpable with meter.

@King D

Thanks man, this is really helpful. :slight_smile:

I was actually thinking of making a Fireball Guide similar to the one in the Ryu thread but that’ll be overkill for me.

Four weeks until I post the new match-up thread. A small snippet:

Ryu

[details=Spoiler][spoiler=Match-Up]

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Video

Spoiler

[media=youtube]6X2g1DO7HS0]YouTube - Daigo [Ryu] vs KichijyojiKEN [Ken[/media]
[media=youtube]8WDxMg9Qw4U]YouTube - Momochi [Ken] vs EDA RYU ST4 [Ryu[/media]
[media=youtube]bUuBn4Ykw94[/media]
[media=youtube]Dqy1XJYzXRk[/media] [/details]

Sagat

[details=Spoiler][spoiler=Match-Up]

[Quote=Dr. Chaos]
Offense

  • You want to approch sagat safely without taking to much damage for it. The first round or any other time he has no meter you can kara focus tiger shots for free. After he gets ex meter it becomes a bit more tricky, and you can lose alot of life if you guess wrong. You might notice alot of sagat players throwing one regular, then another ex after. You can use this to your advantage to jump over it but they might not throw it out at all, so sometimes the best decision after a blocked tiger shot is just to wait. Staying on the ground for the most part is key, but you have to jump sometimes, or you will risk taking alot of chip damage. Once you approach the “danger zone” where its not safe for him to throw tiger shots anymore, you will probably see a change in there gameplay. Some may just sit there and wait, walk/dashback, mash s.rh etc. Just be cautious to not jump the gun and get hit by something that sends you all the way back to the other side of the screen. Thats when this match starts getting difficult. You are only allowed about 1-2 mistakes on Sagat and then its game over sadly :frowning:

"Danger Zone"
Ok this is where it gets serious. Sagat will stop at nothing to keep you out and vice versa for you. You want to make a safest approach but sometimes that is not always easy to see. What you do not want to do is jump in recklessly. You will have to watch out for cr.fierce s.mk s.lk tiger shot(pushes you back even on block) tiger knee, and even tiger shot. Now some sagat players will just hurl tiger shots at you, knowing you won’t jump. But you have to at some point or will risk dying from chip damage. I lost many rounds/matches in tournaments to doing this. Being too safe, at some point in this match you will have to take a risk. But if you keep the match going fast you won’t really have to worry about that too much.

-Step kick gets you in but loses to some pokes, tiger shot(but will cancel them if it hits him on startup) tiger knee, and of course uppercut.
-Jump in loses to like any anti air in general.
-Kara/focus loses to tiger knee s.rh (if both hits connect) and ex tiger shot.
-Walk and block loses to nothing!

Walk up low forward and step kick is usually your go to moves, I would probably only use focus early on, if they have meter I would most likely use it sparingly. Thats why it is important to “Do Work Quick” On the same token don’t be afraid to jump if they are just hurling projectile after projectile.

Defense
-Sagat has a arsenal of Shannegians you will have to deal with unfortunately. Best way to deal with them all is to block alot. If they are low on life be EXTRA cautious because some sneaky sagat stuff is coming. Random focusing should be punished with low forward ex tatsu, or just jump back Fast! Tiger knee traps into Uppercut fadc ultra, should be watched for too. Also notice the postioning if Sagat has you in the corner he probably wouldnt waste his meter on uppercut fadc ultra since it scales in the corner. But sometimes you should rather just block and take the throw then risk it and lose to uppercut fadc, especially when your in the lead and the throw won’t kill you but uppercut fadc will. Just be mineful of Sagats 50/50s and respect them but try your best to avoid them.

Knockdown
-Ok, after sagat is knocked down you have a whole list of things to run on him. Tatsu cross up, Jump in fierce, cross up fierce, lk jump in. Standard mk cross up, jab kara throw, empty jump in, cross up throw etc. Just choose whatever is right for the situation, also the life meters will probably dictate the best one to choose. When there real low on life sometimes it may pay off to just empty jump in cr.lk, lp shoryu ftw. But you might catch that uppercut fadc ultra. But risks in this match do pay off immensely but just make sure they are smart ones, and you can afford the punishment if it goes wrong. Jump in Fierce and Jump in short deal with uppercuts good but not all the time, don’t think they will come out on top all the time, especially if they have an ultra, just go for safe stuff. You don’t want a traded uppercut to ultra to ruin your game.

What to watch out for?
-Tiger knee, Throw, Uppercut, ex shot. Ultra! These moves all hurl you back like full screen and un-do all your hard work. Thats why its important to eliminate Sagat as quickly as possible but also as safely as possible. However, if hes trying to punish your kara focus with ex shot, then he won’t have alot of ex to spare for fadc’ing. Use this stuff to your advantage to get him to waste meter.
-You can low forward some tiger knee traps and ones thrown from afar, but remember they might just uppercut. So be careful.
-Use mk tatsu so when you recover you can just walk back slighty and be out of grab range and be safe from uppercuts.
-Kara air tatsu can get you in full screen but I wouldn’t use it alot, its more of a last ditch effort. You could probably throw it out around begining of 2nd round and escape with it though, just don’t make it “too” predictable.
-When you have Sagat in the corner/down. Don’t follow him with attack after attack, make it unpredictable but at the same time don’t let him escape. You want to finish this match as soon as possible, the longer it goes on the more challenging it is to win, because he will have meter, ultra. Along with his usual tiger buddies. Be mindful of jump in grab/uppercut. The throw will reset the situation same with uppercut. Eliminate this option all together by Dp’ing all his jump ins and keeping him contained.
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Video

[details=Spoiler] [media=youtube]RCENiQR6r_g[/media]
[media=youtube]Z2xMORBuaGs[/media]
[media=youtube]uIeLvT6_ffk]YouTube - Michael Tan [Ken] vs Blackey 2309 [Sagat[/media]
[media=youtube]fSdpn7SmtjY[/media]
[media=youtube]4mue3-fTcEs[/media] [/details]
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Wow that’s lookin very good so far. Iam lookin forward to seein the final product

Alright. So I think I need to hit the lab again against Chun. Besides not being able to adjust to the setups at the tournament I entered saturday I just played horrible overall and mainly beat people with fundamentals and footsies/zoning/spacing game. The tournament had a lot of good players from all over Texas(except houston and most of austin didn’t go) so I ran into the best players when I was put in losers and made it to top 8 losers.

Just want an evaluation from you guys on the match, you should notice a few awkward moments from me and that’s struggling with the difference in timing on the evo lagless asus monitors. But again, no excuses, I should of adjusted to it quicker during the tournament or we should of left earlier to get casual play time in before the tournament started.

Don’t go easy on me guys, rip it hard because I want to be able to beat this guy the next time we meet. [media=youtube]qCSjdGrnnNw[/media]

Obvious things, stop jumping over fireballs and just neutral jump them. Throw more fireballs myself. Don’t drop the combos! And don’t throw stupid fireballs(I just went autopilot there, too desperate for the win and I didn’t think about the big picture).

Oh and I got 5th place reppin’ Ken in singles and 4th in Teams. I’ll keep up this kind of performance to show Ken isn’t a joke flowchart guys!

I hate Chun Li.

I don’t think I can really preach at you here because your fundamentals surpass my own!!

All I can say is that your empty jumps were a bit too obvious timing wise. I would ahve like to see you safe jumping her with jump in FP and force the block. There’s no need to empty jump Chun as her ex bird is 6 frame start-up. I think this would immediately put a lot more pressure on her on wake-up.

Maybe use more fireballs at and around her max poke range? Just don’t get predictable.

I actually thought you did well, just missed out on opportunities to cause damage.

G.