821

we were both max range, cr. jab wouldnt have reached idk bout st.hk

822

I would like to see a little more recovery time on Yun’s EX lunge punch. I also think they need to give back Ryu’s “super” version of his cr. forward. I would like to see Seth and Gen get 50 more health.

823

ok… if Fei can hit you with cr. fierce, your cr. jab should be able to make it. Just try it in practice mode. st. hk hitbox is a better choice for counterpoke, just like Yun’s :stuck_out_tongue:

824

It wasnt at a range where Fei should have been able to hit me normally with his cr.fierce. He just sorta threw it out there. Maybe he thought I would use Dankuu.

825

Right, because his standing fierce can’t be counterhit, swept from fullscreen, or otherwise punished at all… Oh wait. And why shouldn’t a fierce punch do more damage than a regular projectile? That’s how the damage has been balanced since SF2.

Seriously though if Sim got all other damage back and his standing fierce nerf remained, I’d be cool with that.

Yes you can. Sim in Super was not overpowered in any way, he still struggled in a lot of matchups even with his higher damage in that game. No characters had their damage nerfed to the point where Sim would now have an 8-2 against them if his Super damage was returned. Most were Ultra damage nerfs and a small handful of slight normal nerfs. Nothing that would give Sim some crazy advantage by restoring his Super damage.

AE Guile vs. Super Sim would approach an 8-2? C’mon, son. That is grossly exaggerating the situation. Guile’s nerfs in AE were to his Ultra (nerfed too hard, IMO), and slight nerfs to the damage of his spinning back fist and Flash Kicks (and meter building from booms). Sim only has 900 health, so even with these nerfs Sim still can’t afford to get hit by Guile too much.

But you have to remember, I’m not saying that only Sim needs to be brought back to his Super incarnation and everyone else should stay exactly as they are in AE. Other characters need to have some AE nerfs removed too. I’m saying that at a minimum, in order for Sim to resemble his Super self and be viable, he needs his damage back first and foremost. It’s just too low in AE.

826

Actually Sim got a damage buff from vanilla to super.

827

Guile v Sim was 6.5 - 3.5 in Sim’s favor(Some would even say 7-3 in Sim’s favor) in Super. He was one of the worst matchups guile had in super. It really wouldn’t be outrageous to assume 8-2 given Guiles nerfs. Sim currently has a lot of good match ups but the top 3 chars are really bad for him (Fei/Yun/Yang) but seeing as those characters are going to be nerfed buffing Dhalsim back to his Super status could easily put him as one of the strongest characters in the game. Sim might need one or two tweaks sure, I bet every characters could use one or two tweaks. But restoring all, or even most of the nerfs from super to ae would simply be overkill and the wrong way to fix any bad matchups.

Btw the “slight nerfs” to Guile damage was actually fairly significant in my view, but that is a matter of semantics. (flash kick droped from 130/140/160 to 100/120/130. Spinning backfist was dropped from 120 to 90dmg. And the meter building was over nerfed it literally was reduced by HALF, it did need to be nerfed though.) As I said though, this is a matter of semantics, what is “a lot” to some is “not much” to others.

828

This is correct. He got a much needed damage buff to his Yoga Flame and to some normals. Vanilla was so long ago it’s easy to forget just how gimped Sim was in that version. His crouching jab did 15 dmg in Vanilla for fuck’s sake. FIFTEEN. That is less than chip damage. And thinking back it makes Iyo’s Japan Nationals win with Sim against the V. Sagat army even more impressive.

From Vanilla to Super to AE:
LP Flame 80 - 110 - 110
MP Flame 90 - 140 - 140
HP Flame 100 - 170 - 170
EX Flame 160 - 180 - 120

From Vanilla to Super they also improved his drills so they could be useful, gave EX Yoga Fires full screen travel rather than fizzling out like regular Fires, and shortened the range on his standing fierce. All great changes.

DownBack Fierce 80 - 100 - 85
Back Roundhouse 110 - 110 - 90
Standing Fierce 80 - 85 - 75

So his most crucial normals are now weaker than they were in Vanilla or do similar damage, on top of his EX Flame being the weakest its been in all 3 versions. Not to mention his Super combo losing 50 damage for no reason. And the trade off we get for this damage gimping is a db.mp that can combo into itself, and the ability to combo into EX Flame from mid attacks? All this plus the introduction of Yun and his ridiculous damage, and the characters who hit the hardest still have all their damage intact (Viper, Rufus, Abel, Akuma, etc.) or have been buffed (Makoto, Seth).

I honestly think that someone involved with balancing SF4 either plays against some Sim gods in Japan like Mochi or Darui and wanted to fix their wagon for beasting on him too much, or is a Daigo fan who hated seeing him struggle so hard vs. Sim throughout Super’s life, and somehow convinced the rest of the team that Sim needed to be nerfed hard. I can make no other sense of why he got hit with the nerf bat so hard when he was not a threat in Super, especially against the top tier. He struggled hard with almost every character who you were likely to see finishing in the top spots in tourneys.

It was not that bad. 6-4 at most. Do yourself a favor and go check out any of the 500 Guard Crush finals with Art vs. Dieminion and tell me that looks like a 6.5-3.5 or 7-3 for Sim. I mean if the matchup is that free for Sim then why did Art often go with Rose against Die’s Guile??

If it was anything near a 7-3 there is no way he would pick anyone other than Sim. The reality is that matchup is an equally tough grind for both characters, and if either one fell behind too quick then making up that health defecit was EXTREMELY difficult.

Anyone saying the matchup is 7-3 in Sim’s favor is either a weak Guile player, not able to judge match ups very well, or just plain bullshitting.

829

Spent the last hour checking around, every matchup list I found had it as 7-3 for dhalsim. As for why a player chose to go with a character over another one, or why one performed a certain way. I can’t tell you. I can’t tell you why F. Champ chose to play Sim at Evo this year (for the most part) instead of going with Seth when Yun/Fei were so dominate at the tournament.

830

He doesn’t need his Super damage back. A small damage buff to a couple of his things that were made pointless, sure. But unless they’re buffing the hell out of everyone else, characters that did too much damage for what they were like Sim, Guile and Honda don’t need ALL of that damage back. Or even most of it.

Damage increases across the board like that have effects on ALL of a character’s matchups. Sure, Sim struggles a lot against some of the cast, but on the other hand some of the cast struggles hard enough against him as it is without him doing considerably more damage.

The only thing that kept Sim from being a “threat” in Super is that he had a few bad matchups. So we should return to a situation where he’s not a threat unless you’re playing a character he has an advantage on, and then you’re just ass out? No thanks.

Without seeing the general landscape of how the balance is going to be, I think the only things that are reasonable are small and subtle changes that would help bring AE to a more balanced game. A few un-nerfs are reasonable, as are a few buffs or a few nerfs. Nerfing/buffing general damage output, or buffing the majority of a character’s moveset is too extreme, unless it’s established that that’s the trend they’re going for.

For example,unless they’re going for basing all characters off their strongest incarnation, it’s not a good idea to give us Vanilla Ryu and just slightly nerf/tweak him.

What I will ask for is his Super low forward back, and to restore the arc on his air Tatsu. Because as he is, and taking Ken’s buffs into account, there’s simply little reason to even play as the character.

My Recommendations:

Ryu:
-Air Tatsu, low forward, and forward fierce returned to Super state.

Honda:
-Jab Headbutt returned to Super properties.

Cammy:
-Lower height restriction on Cannon Strike

Ken:
-No changes

Viper:
-Decrease damage on Ultra 1
-Slight damage decrease on Burn Kicks and EX Seismo

Rose:
-Give enough I. Frames to EX Soul Spiral to make it a decent GTFO reversal.
-Make meter gain from LP Soul Reflect averaged between Super and AE

Chun-Li:
-Fix Ultra 1

Guile:
-Restore the range and/or startup of his air throw to Super status
-Make meter gain from Sonic Booms averaged between Super and AE

Bison:
-Reduce damage of Ultra 2, and return it’s command to QCFx2

Rufus:
-Fix EX Messiah Kick’s hitbox so it doesn’t whiff crouchers on hit.

Makoto:
-Damage output slightly altered depending on general balance, but no other changes.

Evil Ryu:
-Reduce sweep’s startup by 1 frame (to 6 frames)
-Increase Health to 900-950, with 950 Stun

Yun:
-Reduce meter gain on whiffed specials, especially Palms.
-Reduce meter gain on landed Palms
-Reduce range of command throw, and give EX command throw the former command throw’s range.
-Increase recovery on s.MP > s.HP target combo by 2 frames, making it -5 on block
-Make EX Lunge Punch -4 if blocked close, -1 if blocked max distance/meaty.
-No changes to Genei Jin.

Yang:
-Slightly reduce projectile invincibility on non-EX Dragon Kicks.

Of course, other changes should be made on these and other characters, but I’d like to see this for starters.

831

In other words, make them completely useless. OK.

That’s gotta be a joke man. Those things are so slow. You’ve gotta be damn near psychic to hit anyone with those things… unless you’re fighting Dhalsim, who has horrible recovery on his Fire.

Again… I have to stress this… don’t suggest shit based on what a character does against YOUR character… there’s more to the game than that.

832

Yeah that’s the problem with 90% of the posters on SRK. It’s all about me, me, me, me, me. Everyone’s making suggestions pertaining to how it affects match ups against their characters only.

833

Probably because everyone knows their main characters best?

834

only read a few pages before it was to much to read. My buffs/nerfs would be:

Honda:
Jab Headbutt back to SSF4
s.HP buffed up by maybe 20 more damage at least when used as an AA.

Gen: (this is the one char i would consider to buff the most.)
EX Oga have its Vanilla invincibility back until he hits the wall.
Slightly better meter build.
Not gonna say HP hands like in vanilla cause I like the way alot of gens are taking him these days and it was pretty 1dimensional back in the days when i mained him.(although I loved Hands Looping :slight_smile: )

Ryu:
c.MK back to SSF4 frames.

Juri:
A viable wakeup. EX pinwheel just cant cut it.

Guile:
pretty much back to SSF4 guile.

Cammy:
TKCS

Fei Long:
Decrease EX Flame kick damage a tad bit.
Other then that I think Fei Long is well balanced move wise.

835

Everyone seems to forget that when you give a character X buff to deal with Y matchup, it also affects all 38 other matchups.

836

Nah, that’s just assuming people have a good sense of balance for the entire game, and not being greedy and narrow minded about changes.

837

Yeah they know there mains so they list nerfs to characters so there mains have less trouble against them. This thread is getting ridiculous.

What satyamdas and me are saying is that besides Guile and Ryu who he certainly does better against. I dont think Sim ever dominated any character. He has a lot of even match ups and some 6-4s in his favor, but also loses 6-4 to rufus, 7-3 to abel, 6-4 to viper (maybe worse) and 7-3 to Cammy and now 8-2 to Yun. He also loses to yang and fei ( Fei being the lesser of the evils i just mentioned).

You keep mentioning guile as a reason not to buff Sim. The thing is i would like to see guile buffed. I would love to see Rose buffed. The reason I’m not suggesting how is i don’t know those characters. I haven’t entered and competed in touney’s with those characters. I have with Sim and I’m telling you Sim is not a tourney viable character anymore with his low damage and Yun and Yang in the game.

Some of you literally act like were saying give him st drills and have his Ex flame do 300 damage and have all his normals do 30 more damage. We are just saying for the sake of balance to have him back to his super self who dominated no one and was by far never an instant win.

Sim gets a bad rap because he’s a purely zoning character and can be frustrating to play against. He also dominates scrubs.

Will i freak and stop playing him if he isn’t buffed? No i wont. I was disappointed when i heard of his nerfs, but ultimately i will keep playing Sim whether they buff him or not. I’m just giving my opinion on what would make him a more viable character to use.

Also, for the record i don’t think they should touch Viper or Cammy who do very well against my character. I think they both are very solid characters and if given the choice, would not have them nerfed.

838

Bring back vanilla Gen.
That is all

839

On one hand I do agree that you can’t just look at a single match up, but at the same time if one character is having a problem with a character’s tool then odds are that character isn’t alone.

For instance, Ibuki had trouble getting in on guile because she lacked the tools to negate Guile’s sonic booms and jumping over them worked in Guile’s favor. It is true that this is just one match up, but at the same time Ibuki was not alone. Others like Bison had the exact same problem. In general the characters who had nothing to negate sonic boom pressure had bad match ups against Guile because they had to take large risks while characters with good fireball games or fast tools to get around it had better match ups with guile.

So it comes down to understanding what makes the match up good/bad and see if that applies to any other match ups.

Like I said before, extreme characters (or the characters who are close to a one trick pony) are the hardest to balance because they are polarizing characters. In most of their match ups they either control tge match or get controled.

840

Are you serious? I’ve seen Yang punish fireballs from about everyone but Sagat, Gouken and Guile with HK roll from half screen away on reaction. I suggest it because as the move is it shuts down just about any kind of fireball zoning from almost everyone.

Also, FYI, I play about 15 characters, including the twins. I can punish most fireballs on reaction myself. If you think it’s psychic, either your reactions probably aren’t on point, you’re not looking for fireballs when you should be, or you’re an online warrior.

Rose, Ken, Sakura, Chun, Sim (why would Sim be throwing fire at Yang anyway?), easy. You don’t even have to be looking for it. Ryu/Evil Ryu, Oni, Seth, Akuma, you wait, buffer it and press a button. If done right, the only one that can consistently recover from over half screen away before they get hit is Evil Ryu. Dee Jay and Cody are a bit harder, with Dee Jay it depends on the spacing and the Air Slasher, with Cody you have to do it on reaction to him grabbing the rocks (so you can be baited). You only have to be psychic vs. Sagat’s high Tiger Shot, Guile’s light Boom, and Gouken’s uncharged non-EX fireball.

Sure, I know Ryu better than the other characters, but my suggestions aren’t based around serving his matchups at all. I don’t think Yang should shut down fireball zoning with nothing more than the threat of a single special from half screen away. He’s got an Ultra for that. Just like I don’t think Yun should get in for free on 25% meter. My ideas are based on more than just one matchup. That you’d accuse me of that off one change I suggested tells me you’re just bitching cause you don’t want to see that character nerfed.