3121

Because at ECT this year after I beat him he was telling me about how hopeless Sim is and yadda yadda about how he enjoys and focuses on marvel soooo much more blah blah blah.

3122

More damage and stun is fine, but for a character who.does 300 dmg and 500 stun on basic bnbs and 400 dmg/700 stun on fadc combos, and whose main frame traps are also his main hit confirms are also his best combo starters, I don’t think damage or stun are the problems.

Dan’s problem area is the midrange footsie area. I’m fine with that, a character with good frame traps, good damage/stun, good pursuit, good dp, and good backdash doesn’t also need good footsies or zoning tools. So in response to other people’s Dan buff ideas, I don’t really want better st mk, cr mk, etc.

I want 2 main things: more consistent dankus and more advantage for ex danku on hit and for air lk danku on block.

Dan’s mk/hk dankus are really weird. They’re supposed to be -2, but I’ve been punished in some cases by 4 frame moves. Sometimes they stop hitting crouching characters, sometimes they whiff over crouching characters’ heads. I think this is probably due to stupidity in their hitboxes. If their hitboxes extended a bit closer to the ground and a bit farther horizontally, I think these problems would go away. I’m only asking for a few pixels either way to fix those issues, not a big change or anything.

Currently, after Dan hits the opponent with ex danku he can’t really maintain pressure. If the opponent quick rises after getting hit, he can hit Dan out of Dan’s attempt to dash up for more pressure. All I want is a few extra frames on hit in which to dash up. Again, not a big change, no change on block required. I’m not even looking for a hard knockdown. I just want the opponent to stay on the ground a little longer after I spend meter on ex danku.

In one of the versions, iirc Vanilla to Super, Dan’s air lk danku was given more recovery. There’s no reason for this. This is mainly used to try to get in from certain ranges on about a third of the cast, but it can be unsafe on block on grapplers. Again, not looking for much of a change, just enough so that Dan is safe doing this on grapplers, who are some of his worst matchups.

It would be nice if u2 didn’t blow Dan to the other side of the stage and if u1 wasn’t focusable, but those aren’t as important as the buffs above.

I’m not trying to buff Dan too hard. I don’t think he needs it. He’s not top tier or anything, but he doesn’t need to be. I don’t really care about tiers being redone, just slightly compressed. At this point in SF4 imo very little tweaking needs to be done.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

3123

I think buffing the hitbox of Sim’s AA would have a worse effect for his good matches than just buffing the dmg, while not helping much ag Makoto and Cammy.

It’s not just some dmg buffs - I basically returned the dmg Sim had in Super - when he was better (but nobody caled him broken). Sim mainers requested this, plus, I think Dhalsim really needs the dmg - his dmg output was really low, and the nerfs made it even lower. I think this will improve him overall, without making him broken.

3124

Ok, what about Dudley, honda and fuerte ?

Dudley

  • F+ MK: buff the hitbox
  • HK: buff the hitbox
  • cr. LP: buff the hitbox
  • F+ HK: - fix the reel back bug
  • reduce the hurtbox
  • HP: buff the hitbox
  • cr. HK: - reduce the start up with 1 frame (13)
  • reduce the recovery with 1 frame (21)
  • MGB: + 1 hitstun for M, H (+2/+1)
  • 1 blockstun for all versions (-1/-3/-4/-7)
  • SSB: - buff the hitbox for the normal versions.
  • reduce recovery with 1 frame for normal versions (19-21-21)
  • L,M: +1 blockstun (-1/-3)

E. Honda

  • far HP: +20 dmg (100)
  • Oicho: +10 dmg for L,M,H (170-180-190)
  • L Headbutt: +10 dmg when AA (110)
  • H Hands: +14 dmg (119)
  • Ultra 2: start up becomes 1+0 like in Super (opponent cannot jump after screen freeze)
  • Shikofumi: reduce the start up with 7 frames (23)
  • EX Hands: - +21 dmg (161)
  • Hands: - M hands/ extended M hands: buff the hitbox for both for better connection; reduce the hitstun for both with 1 frame (+7/+11)
  • H. Hands: +1 blockstun (+4)
  • Ex Hands: buff the hitbox (expanded for better connection)
  • Oicho: - for all versions, in the corner, on hit, throw animation doesn’t end with Honda having crossed over to the far side
  • Ex Oicho: +5 strike invincibility frames; reduce the range to 1.20 (from 1.52)

El Fuerte

  • Guacamole Leg Throw: Fix the trade (example: Ryu jHK’s El Fuerte Guacs. they both hit each other, Fuerte takes full damage from jHK and flies back like he should from getting hit in air. Ryu teleports to the ground hard knockdown, no damage.)
  • Habanero Back Dash: Fix the deadzone (there are times when you run back you can mash jab (sudden stop) and El Fuerte will not stop, instead hitting the wall and running forward, still not stopping.
  • Tostada Press: Fix the splash hit box, I can’t tell you how many times I splash, I see Fuerte touch them, nothing happens, then my ass is grizazz
  • cl HP: +50 stun (200). Run Stop Fierce is a rare occurrence in high level play. If you eat it and you play a low stun character like Viper, you deserve to get stunned. This is really Fuerte’s only damage. Any Fuerte that relies solely on his mixup is almost guaranteed to lose.
  • Propeller Tortilla: +18 dmg (150). The best thing this move had going for it was beating Ryu/Akuma DP free in Vanilla, changing their properties indirectly nerfed Fuerte. The damage nerf is unnecessary
  • Quesadilla Bomb: reduce the start up with 1 frame (16)
3125

Agreed with pretty much everything here, Dan has his faults but those shouldn’t be removed as those along with his strengths are what makes him unique, like how all other characters faults/strengths help to uniquely define them. His buffs should mainly be focussed on fixing things that don’t work as intended (like for example his m/h Dankus losing frame advantage against, or whiffing over certain crouching opponents like Cammy), fixing his heavilly unbalanced matchups (giving Dan’s air :lk: Danku less recovery would allow for Dan to use it on grapplers like T.Hawk and not eat an SPD on block and would improve it’s use as an approach tool against keepaway/zoning characters which Dan also struggles against).

As for changes for his Ultra’s I would also like his Ultra 2 to have less blowback (landing an ultra only to be punished by the ultra throwing Dan away to the position where he is the weakest is always annoying).
As for his Ultra 1 armour breaking would be nice, but as said by Ultra David changes to his ultras aren’t as important as primary changes.

Those changes along with removing a few unnecessary nerfs from prior patches and a few fixes would help Dan significantly while keeping him balanced, Taking Emanuel’s prior list it would look somewhat like this (edits in bold).

3126

Ok, I make the changes to Dan :).
You sure Dan doesn’t need less recovery for his LK ? I remember David once asked for this.
And you don’t need 1 more frame of invincibility for U2 ? That was a nerf from Super.

About the U2 blowback - I’m all for it, but maybe they could keep some animation - I find it very funny.

3127

Dan’s pressure game is incredible but if some of his normals were up to par ( crouching HP , crouching MK, standing MK) he would be much more accessible to 99% of players who aren’t pros

3128

The nerf was that the invincibility doesn’t cover the move’s entire startup, so he can’t use it in FB wars because he will get stuffed. Adding 1 frame of invincibility won’t do much, as it’s more of an all or nothing deal. You’d have to make it invincible for all 14f of startup or w/e to revert that nerf.

The Honda buffs are all useful, but I think that is to be expected since you’re a Honda main. Honda will be pretty strong with those, and that’s fine. It’s just that the other characters are getting random hitstun and recovery buffs with no clear reason for them.

3129

Well, I’m working for the other characters, too. I take people’s oppinions, but if I don’t find anything…then I can’t do much. I checked the Bison subforum - I think I will come with something quite strong for bison. I think in the end everybody will get something good. Maybe that Dan buff I added isn’t that great (I didn’t know what to give him…) but I added what David and Swedish chef said.

Anyway, you can say what buffs you think are meaningless, and what else could be better, I’m open to sugestions.

3130

I’d like if most of dan’s match ups became mostly 5-5s with some 6-4s in his favor with maybe a good few matches still being 4-6 for him.

3131

I’d like if most of dan’s match ups became mostly 5-5s with some 6-4s in his favor with maybe a good few matches still being 4-6 for him.

3132

Its even against Rose

EDIT: regarding Dee jay’s LK sobat

and you want it throw invincible and airborne state ?
IMO it should be one or the other. You are already not throwable during airborne state. Why both ?

What’s the archtype of dee jay ? Are we trying to give him a little more pressure tools with the slasher being faster ? (from what I’m looking at, this could force a lot of characters to stay in the corner and force them to take chip damage)

3133

Lk Sobat was throw invincible and airborne in Super - I just reverted the nerfs. But if you think it’s too much, maybe we will choose one of them - actually I think Da Knut only requested one - I think throw invincible (the reason is - to have an easier time against grapplers)

3134

I dunno if he does or does not need it, however I just want to point out that you can’t JUST revert the nerfs without taking into consideration the other changes. Sobat wasn’t ONLY nerfed it actually received buffs in other areas to try and compensate for that fairly strong nerf. It does 10 more damage, has 2F shorter startup and the lower body invincibility was increased.

3135

So basically like allowing Ryu to FADC his 2012 HP DP

No…

3136

Sobat could go somewhat back to super keep the 10 damage, increase the start up, keep the lower body inv, and make it throw invincible.

I think Deejay’s u1 should move forward a little more when its used as a punish. I dont use deejay much but that seems pretty fair since his u1 doesn’t have much use.

I know this isn’t about deejay but what could hakan get to help him do better?

3137

hakan is fine as he is o_O
he needs his U2 to have more startup tbh. I dont think ANYONE should be allowed to have an AA that’s 1F startup.
and his focus cancel thingy when he’s oiled have a bit more recovery or his normals does more pushback because shit is stupid imo

3138

IMO It is mostly an issue of consistency and risk. It is a similar issue to why Cody’s knife is bad despite buffs, why even after buffs Juri’s U1 is still less popular than her U2, why low health characters with lots of strong tools tend to do better than high health characters with only a couple strong tools. Without oil Hakan is really bad and his ability to oil up is reliant on what the opponent is doing and what the opponent is capable of doing at the moment.

Being able to dictate the pace of match is very important. Being able to consistently land 150-200 damage will often outweigh the ability to OCCASIONALLY land 250-350 damage. Just look at Akuma vs Oni in terms of tools and combos or Cody’s strength vs Fei/Cammy’s strengths or how even post nerfs Yun is still very much viable.

If something isn’t consistent it has to be overwhelmingly strong when it is available to offset it. Hakan is certainly a strong character when oiled but even if he was oiled for the whole match would he really be S tier noticeably stronger than everyone else or would he just be an A tier character who can compete with the best but has exploitable weaknesses that some of the other top tiers can work around?

3139

So it hasn’t just been my imagination on the lower invincibility. Good to know.

3140

Huh

Now you contradict yourself :looney: