I think that we fundamentally agree. An AA should stuff everything --and this is where I diverge – if done/timed correctly.
If done too early the player doing the DP just may catch another player with the tail end of the active frames or it’ll whiff.
If done too late the player doing the DP will whiff and the incoming player will land in time to block.
There is a certain strictness in the timing of DPs. My problem is that Sagat gets a bit of a pass on this. Not a huge pass, but a small pass nonetheless which allows him to gain extra damage in all cases. (edit: in all cases where the trade occurs)
The trade seems to come as a result of the AA not hitting correctly, that is, not being timed properly. But since the advantage in Sagats case is* so* great with the ability to turn any trade in the game into his favor by simply holding forward and hitting HK, what happens is that the player will start to look for that and seek out the trade since it is in his advantage to do so. This means that in situations where a player would normally not try to DP because he is pretty sure he’ll be late and get hurt trading, that Sagat player will without a doubt take the opportunity to perform a move that he knows will trade because the actually/proper timing of the move is less advantageous.
This is why I refer to his trade DP into step kick as sloppy play. I know some Sagat players and they do work hard for the most part but every time I see this happen I just think that it’s a sloppy DP but that the game lets it happen. It makes Sagat more dangerous for sure but it does so in such a way that doesn’t seem to require the skill involved for the ease of doing it combined with the damage in his favor. In other words, it seems so powerful for being so easy to do, and only he can do it.
I know they took it from Ryu and at the time some friends of mine were discussing it and we were a little bewildered… why not just remove them (trades) from the game entirely? Your idea about the FADC is interesting. I’m gonna think about this. nice idea.
IMO If you took it from Sagat, the only other choice would be on a trade that the character is propelled further across the screen giving him the zoning advantage back. The amount of damage a Tiger uppercut deals now, isn’t enough to discourage a jump in unless he as AS stocked. Either that or make the roundhouse propel further so the Ultra could not connect.
The Ryu trade makes sense as he can lp dp AA into Ultra, FADC, fireball FADC, has amazing footsie’s, a keep out tool at close range etc etc. Giving him another way into Ultra would be too much.
Sagat’s always been a high damage character. He lacks tools in certain area’s because of this.
What tools exactly is Sagat missing? He has great normals, great damage, a far above average reversal, good range game, good throw game, and combos into ultra or super.
Only thing I know of that Sagat suffers in is the walk speed area but he is rarely going to be the one on approach.
Really as far as I know what keeps Sagat’s gameplay a little more balanced is that he sticks his limbs out so far for tiger shots and his DP has incredibly bad recovery on whiff. Plus his giant hitbox. But “lack of tools” doesn’t seem to be an issue for him as far as I can tell. However I don’t play Sagat.
Well, his damage isn’t GREAT by any means…it’s on the higher end of average (sans dp fadc f.rh ultra which does really good damage). Also, his throw game is ass…seriously, if you’re getting thrown a lot by sagat you’re doing something wrong.
Anyways, he’s good as he is. No need to nerf/buff him imho
He’s missing close combat, many Sagat players believe he has hard matches against…Guy, Ibuki, Ken, Abel, Fei, Akuma, Viper and Yang. His normals are good, but walk speed play’s a massive part of footsie’s and Sagat has no walk speed. Plus with his gigantic hit box, he’s usually always on the wrong end of high damage character specific combo’s. Whiff on some characters? it’s 90% sure to land on Sagat. Lots of Sagat players want the st’lk cancel back, but personally I think that would edge him towards OP in certain matches (grapplers for example would have a massive disadvantage).
Don’t get me wrong, he’s one of the best characters in the game IMO, but there’s a certain way to beat him if your smart. Besides I don’t think removal of a situation should be based on it’s ease of application. That’s not balance, that’s people having a whinge (not anyone in particular, just my thoughts).
The way I see it , you can easily tell if you are up for a trade ultra, if you timed your jump late you have to realise that and eat the uppercut.
Those are all characters that do very well up close. But other than Ken those characters all have moves to approach from the air angle that Sagat’s DP doesn’t cover as well as a jump in. Except Abel who has his roll + good dash. Plus, if you noticed, many of those characters are mixup based which def is something Sagat doesn’t like since without FADC his DP is extremely vunerable compared to others. But I wouldn’t say his close combat is missing its just not exceptional. He is certainly better at close combat that any other zoner and better at close combat than many non-zoning based characters. His walk speed does affect his footsies but he still is passable at worst thanks to the good reach + trades in his favor due to higher damage and stamina.
I dunno I still feel like he isn’t “missing” any tools or even has any “sub par” tools. Just some areas that he is only average in compared to the areas he is above average in. If his close combat game wasn’t decent he wouldn’t be able to contend with the twins and no amount of zoning ability would keep him from getting demolished by them like Dhalsim.
he is actually kinda bad up close. no chainable lights, everything with range is slow. and his footsies are very noticably weak if he has to fight a character with reaction mid range punishes to fireballs. yeah he isnt sim up close, but he’s still below average
Okay, I’ll give it one more shot since I’m guessing they are still working on it.
When the patch was originally revealed I was hoping for this entire reasonable list of buffs to make it, but since Rose hasn’t gotten anything useful with two lists of changes already, I would already settle for at least one of the following:
EX Spiral buff, making it an actual reversal worthy of wasting meter.
U1 faster start up, so that it’s easier to catch obvious jump ins.
U1 being able to combo into it off a HP Reflect FADC.
U1 fireball invincible until the scarf is extended completely.
Focus attack hitbox increase, making it easier to hit.
Since is too long to post here, just hoping Capcom reads the specific character threads, there are some extensive explanation about the flaws that need to be issued.
All I want for Sagat. Move over 15 points of damage on all Tiger Knees. So first hit does 15 less and second hit does 15 more. Second hit of Tiger Knee has one less frame of recovery.
-:qcb:+:k: cannon strike during holigan, will solve cammy’s high height restriction issue. Minimum frames required to perform move needs some adjusting in order to prevent it to be instant cannon strike.
-:qcf:+:lk: light spiral arrow can be continued with EX-cannon spike:dp:+:k::k: everywhere on the screen. it may even be a safe poke. 50 damage is ok.
-:db::qcf::uf:+:p:>:lp::lk: holigan grab can be performed instantly after air spin begins. This will allow Cammy to cancel normals in to holigan combination grab, giving her a way to break turtles and putting holigan into game as a reliable move.
-slightly increased throw range for air-holigan throws.(not ground)
-:hcb:+:lp: light spin knuckles startup enough to be cancelled from far standing :hp:, allowing cammy to use it in combos.
-far :mk: cancellable.
most of this list actually based on giving cammy more options. allowing players to choose from a larger move-combo-mix pool. Atm I feel options are what she needs
