Official SRK SFxT Balance Discussion Thread

[cg123n1]

Personally I find Hwoarang to have much safer pressure than Law, having a special move that actually leaves him at frame advantage instead of -5 and an overhead that also leaves him at an advantage instead of -3, not to mention his duck being cancellable into specials and most of his normals being cancellable even in flamingo. Law’s f+mp overhead can be punished by SRKs and certain supers.

Not even gonna front. You’re right about that. His Tsunami needs to be +0 on block, as well as his Dynamite Heel. His dive kick needs to be straight negative, although his normal Air Raid can be the same. Before asking, I would put Dynamite Heel at 0 because everyone in the game besides grapplers has at least one safe (or almost safe) special. Tsunami should be 0 instead of negative because Chainsaw Kick is already negative + it’s not a true block string anyway, so it’d be dumb if Tsunami had similar properties, especially since it doesn’t lead to a ground bounce.

Finally breaking my silence and protest over the god awful forums…but where’s the Lili talk. Tisk tisk…

You should’ve BEEN A-FKING-ROUND. You let your scene die out. Tisk 2 da tisk. :tdown:

Honestly, no. Fighting games USED to be actually competitive. You get hit with something and figure out a way around it. Now people just sit around and whine about dumb stuff. Its -5. Sure the timing is weird and it will be online, but its not hard to deal with. Most of the time like Dex said you can just walk up throw, or they will back dash. They will occasionally come back around with EX FFR. But the Move is -5. Mean if they press a button afterwards, you will get a CH on them. And most of the time they are crouch blocking afterward if they decide to block and if your someone like Asuka than this could be all bad for Law. Bottom line is if you’re playing a fighting game at a low level, then chances are you don’t need to be playing and you don’t really care about what’s going on because its not like your playing for money. Just to have fun.

I gotta say, this is classic “back in the day, men were MEN” hot air, dude. -5 is punishable, yes, but it’s difficult to punish, especially at the ranges that FFR can leave you at. With some characters, it’s impossible to punish at a lot of ranges.

There are different degrees of safety. You can’t really claim that any move that’s -5 and up is punishable enough, and people just need to “get hit and figure something out”, because hey, everyone has a 4f jab.

You may as well say that a 7f overhead should be allowed because hey, you can block it, and you should be reversaling or backdashing anyway, right?

The fact that Law’s FFR is -5 on block is a problem, although it’s not the most serious problem he has (that would be the somersault kick). I don’t mind it personally, because Blanka can punish that all day. But for a Jack-X player? or a Bryan? It’s kinda rough.

7F overhead? I was taking you serious until that. But seriously, not everything is meant to be punished and not to mention people can still super punish it. They only have 3 options. Mash EX FFR. Dash Back. Or jump at you. Its all about reads. Which is the purpose of a fighting game. You are not suppose to be able to punish EVERYTHING in EVERY situation.

But for the payout of landing that move, it’s hardly punishable at most ranges because of the animation that accompanies it, and they can just lace it with a random EX version cause they already know that, in most cases, you’re gonna TRY to punish it, be too far away, and get smacked by the EX FFR. If you block that…hell, maybe even another one. I know not EVERYTHING should be punishable beyond reason, especially in this game, but for a move like FFR, just 2 frames isn’t gonna kill Law. I wouldn’t mind if EX FFR remained invincible either. But 2 frames of recovery won’t hurt.

Even then, I’d rather see nerfs to his Somersault Kick first. Every time I get hit out of a cross-up when I’m literally at the “the coast is clear” point, I die a tiny bit inside.

Its Cuz u have assholes that think they know everything and try to tell u what you are doing is wrong even though it works for you. I already message Tefightstands about the ft5. Waiting on Costello now

Nothing much just more dodging.

I see what you are doing. lol

Not at all. If I were trying to dodge the match I’d claim the account belonged to my roommate.

Oh and BTW you let me know when you are free (which is all the time) and I’ll gladly grace my presence on the xbox and body you 5-0. I’ll Keep SRK open.

AW YEA WE DOING IT AGAIN! >:D

[The_Big_Boss]

I gotta agree with big boss here, they shouldnt tone down moves so that they make it ‘less accessible’ and more punishable just because someone who never even practiced how to, cant punish a move. And to the person who said ‘it should be like a shoryuken’, no, you see, shoryuken is a 3 frame reversal AND a godly anti air, all in one, and thus it is easily punishable on whiff and on block. Law needs to spend meter on a reversal, he cant just pull one out of his ass whenever he is being pressured/frame trapped. His anti air is amazing property and hitbox wise, comes out in 8 frames as opposed to 3, and it is whiff punishable when not used as an anti air. (on block… not by everyone, especially not if it hits max range I must admit, but its horizontal reach is so pathetic that if used in ‘footsies’ as suggested before, it will whiff 9/10 times, and its really really easy to whiff punish it for a full combo with a little practice)

I whiff punish the hk wheel kick followup to a dragon rush combo 10/10 times (and not with a silly ‘catch them in the air reset normal’ either, I land a full combo because I practiced the timing for catching his recovery before he could cancel it into a backflipper), I chase down the CADC backdash/lk wheel kick followup too if they do it more than once in a match, and I can punish FFR with my characters of choice pretty regularly too. Why? Because I spent 2 minutes in training mode practicing each of those, and I make reads, I dont just play mindlessly. (except when I do… :D)

Also the only way a special cancelled shaolin spin kick is a true blockstring is if its from either a cr.hp or from a st.hp, every other way its NOT a true blockstring and you can reversal through, and if you have good reflexes you can do it even online, especially after you caught on to their patterns of using said attacks. Theres a bunch of other little gimmicks like this about Law that once you learn them, he starts to become a lot less menacing. Sorta like how it was with Hugo at the beginning, or Heihachi, except his ‘gimmicks’ arent as easy to counter and read which makes him a solid character.

Exactly. Once again its about taking him into the training room, analyzing your opponent, and making the read.

[The_Big_Boss]

Personally I find Hwoarang to have much safer pressure than Law, having a special move that actually leaves him at frame advantage instead of -5 and an overhead that also leaves him at an advantage instead of -3, not to mention his duck being cancellable into specials and most of his normals being cancellable even in flamingo. Law’s f+mp overhead can be punished by SRKs and certain supers.

Not even gonna front. You’re right about that. His Tsunami needs to be +0 on block, as well as his Dynamite Heel. His dive kick needs to be straight negative, although his normal Air Raid can be the same. Before asking, I would put Dynamite Heel at 0 because everyone in the game besides grapplers has at least one safe (or almost safe) special. Tsunami should be 0 instead of negative because Chainsaw Kick is already negative + it’s not a true block string anyway, so it’d be dumb if Tsunami had similar properties, especially since it doesn’t lead to a ground bounce.

Finally breaking my silence and protest over the god awful forums…but where’s the Lili talk. Tisk tisk…

You should’ve BEEN A-FKING-ROUND. You let your scene die out. Tisk 2 da tisk. :tdown:

Honestly, no. Fighting games USED to be actually competitive. You get hit with something and figure out a way around it. Now people just sit around and whine about dumb stuff. Its -5. Sure the timing is weird and it will be online, but its not hard to deal with. Most of the time like Dex said you can just walk up throw, or they will back dash. They will occasionally come back around with EX FFR. But the Move is -5. Mean if they press a button afterwards, you will get a CH on them. And most of the time they are crouch blocking afterward if they decide to block and if your someone like Asuka than this could be all bad for Law. Bottom line is if you’re playing a fighting game at a low level, then chances are you don’t need to be playing and you don’t really care about what’s going on because its not like your playing for money. Just to have fun.

I gotta say, this is classic “back in the day, men were MEN” hot air, dude. -5 is punishable, yes, but it’s difficult to punish, especially at the ranges that FFR can leave you at. With some characters, it’s impossible to punish at a lot of ranges.

There are different degrees of safety. You can’t really claim that any move that’s -5 and up is punishable enough, and people just need to “get hit and figure something out”, because hey, everyone has a 4f jab.

You may as well say that a 7f overhead should be allowed because hey, you can block it, and you should be reversaling or backdashing anyway, right?

The fact that Law’s FFR is -5 on block is a problem, although it’s not the most serious problem he has (that would be the somersault kick). I don’t mind it personally, because Blanka can punish that all day. But for a Jack-X player? or a Bryan? It’s kinda rough.

7F overhead? I was taking you serious until that. But seriously, not everything is meant to be punished and not to mention people can still super punish it. They only have 3 options. Mash EX FFR. Dash Back. Or jump at you. Its all about reads. Which is the purpose of a fighting game. You are not suppose to be able to punish EVERYTHING in EVERY situation.

But for the payout of landing that move, it’s hardly punishable at most ranges because of the animation that accompanies it, and they can just lace it with a random EX version cause they already know that, in most cases, you’re gonna TRY to punish it, be too far away, and get smacked by the EX FFR. If you block that…hell, maybe even another one. I know not EVERYTHING should be punishable beyond reason, especially in this game, but for a move like FFR, just 2 frames isn’t gonna kill Law. I wouldn’t mind if EX FFR remained invincible either. But 2 frames of recovery won’t hurt.

Even then, I’d rather see nerfs to his Somersault Kick first. Every time I get hit out of a cross-up when I’m literally at the “the coast is clear” point, I die a tiny bit inside.

Its Cuz u have assholes that think they know everything and try to tell u what you are doing is wrong even though it works for you. I already message Tefightstands about the ft5. Waiting on Costello now

Nothing much just more dodging.

I see what you are doing. lol

Not at all. If I were trying to dodge the match I’d claim the account belonged to my roommate.

Oh and BTW you let me know when you are free (which is all the time) and I’ll gladly grace my presence on the xbox and body you 5-0. I’ll Keep SRK open.

AW YEA WE DOING IT AGAIN! >:D

2 Frames won’t hurt? Just stop dude…Lets focus on a move that is an actual problem. Like Lightning legs. But you’re crying about Law?

[cg123n1]

From a game design perspective I really can’t see the logic in making Law’s moves so awkward to punish. If they’re supposed to be high reward then make them easily punishable. If you’re a good player it won’t make a difference to you but consideration needs to be applied at lower levels of play too. Characters like law just run riot at lower to mid skill levels for no logical reason. I believe you could tweak his moveset to make little difference at high level play but dramatically improve the character for lesser skilled players. Law is really sloppily designed imo.

That’s what I’ve been saying. King has been designed WELL. High risk, but high reward. Law? Hell no. Nina? Even more so. 450 meterless is a win in 2 combos against most female characters WITHOUT METER USAGE. It makes no logical sense why Nina can do that much. It’s not like she doesn’t have reversal options like Kaz, and it’s not like she doesn’t have a combo starting AA that nets 300+. Risk reward is the issue with the top tiers atm. It’s not HORRID like the MVC series, but it’s still there and it shows.

yea but shit health,beyond punishable specials,needs meter for reversal,can get jabbed out of just about anything on reaction, I think Nina balances herself out just well for a good character.

Only special that’s excessively punishable is Blonde Bomb. The other two are fairly safe, especially Skull Splitter. Now we know they aren’t PERFECTLY safe, but you’re talking out your ass if you think that a well spaced, non-spammed Skull Splitter is just easy to punish. Stuffing her moves…I don’t see it. Out of all my struggling with that character, I’ve had the most issues with her good reach and fast normals, making me get desperate enough to jump, and then I get blown up. Her overhead is REALLY quick too. I don’t really see the issue here. As for meter, meter is pretty easy to come by for someone that’s on offense. If you’re turtling, yea, you’ll run out. If you’re going in, you’ll have way more than enough. I don’t really consider her needing meter for her reversal as a big negative. Having a reversal can make a dude get sloppy anyway, and you can always just block or back dash.

Personally I find Hwoarang to have much safer pressure than Law, having a special move that actually leaves him at frame advantage instead of -5 and an overhead that also leaves him at an advantage instead of -3, not to mention his duck being cancellable into specials and most of his normals being cancellable even in flamingo. Law’s f+mp overhead can be punished by SRKs and certain supers.

Not even gonna front. You’re right about that. His Tsunami needs to be +0 on block, as well as his Dynamite Heel. His dive kick needs to be straight negative, although his normal Air Raid can be the same. Before asking, I would put Dynamite Heel at 0 because everyone in the game besides grapplers has at least one safe (or almost safe) special. Tsunami should be 0 instead of negative because Chainsaw Kick is already negative + it’s not a true block string anyway, so it’d be dumb if Tsunami had similar properties, especially since it doesn’t lead to a ground bounce.

Finally breaking my silence and protest over the god awful forums…but where’s the Lili talk. Tisk tisk…

You should’ve BEEN A-FKING-ROUND. You let your scene die out. Tisk 2 da tisk. :tdown:

Honestly, no. Fighting games USED to be actually competitive. You get hit with something and figure out a way around it. Now people just sit around and whine about dumb stuff. Its -5. Sure the timing is weird and it will be online, but its not hard to deal with. Most of the time like Dex said you can just walk up throw, or they will back dash. They will occasionally come back around with EX FFR. But the Move is -5. Mean if they press a button afterwards, you will get a CH on them. And most of the time they are crouch blocking afterward if they decide to block and if your someone like Asuka than this could be all bad for Law. Bottom line is if you’re playing a fighting game at a low level, then chances are you don’t need to be playing and you don’t really care about what’s going on because its not like your playing for money. Just to have fun.

I gotta say, this is classic “back in the day, men were MEN” hot air, dude. -5 is punishable, yes, but it’s difficult to punish, especially at the ranges that FFR can leave you at. With some characters, it’s impossible to punish at a lot of ranges.

There are different degrees of safety. You can’t really claim that any move that’s -5 and up is punishable enough, and people just need to “get hit and figure something out”, because hey, everyone has a 4f jab.

You may as well say that a 7f overhead should be allowed because hey, you can block it, and you should be reversaling or backdashing anyway, right?

The fact that Law’s FFR is -5 on block is a problem, although it’s not the most serious problem he has (that would be the somersault kick). I don’t mind it personally, because Blanka can punish that all day. But for a Jack-X player? or a Bryan? It’s kinda rough.

7F overhead? I was taking you serious until that. But seriously, not everything is meant to be punished and not to mention people can still super punish it. They only have 3 options. Mash EX FFR. Dash Back. Or jump at you. Its all about reads. Which is the purpose of a fighting game. You are not suppose to be able to punish EVERYTHING in EVERY situation.

But for the payout of landing that move, it’s hardly punishable at most ranges because of the animation that accompanies it, and they can just lace it with a random EX version cause they already know that, in most cases, you’re gonna TRY to punish it, be too far away, and get smacked by the EX FFR. If you block that…hell, maybe even another one. I know not EVERYTHING should be punishable beyond reason, especially in this game, but for a move like FFR, just 2 frames isn’t gonna kill Law. I wouldn’t mind if EX FFR remained invincible either. But 2 frames of recovery won’t hurt.

Even then, I’d rather see nerfs to his Somersault Kick first. Every time I get hit out of a cross-up when I’m literally at the “the coast is clear” point, I die a tiny bit inside.

Its Cuz u have assholes that think they know everything and try to tell u what you are doing is wrong even though it works for you. I already message Tefightstands about the ft5. Waiting on Costello now

Nothing much just more dodging.

I see what you are doing. lol

Not at all. If I were trying to dodge the match I’d claim the account belonged to my roommate.

Oh and BTW you let me know when you are free (which is all the time) and I’ll gladly grace my presence on the xbox and body you 5-0. I’ll Keep SRK open.

AW YEA WE DOING IT AGAIN! >:D

2 Frames won’t hurt? Just stop dude…Lets focus on a move that is an actual problem. Like Lightning legs. But you’re crying about Law?

Do we not remember what I said about Lightning Legs already?

Original one is -2. The extended one is like…+2 or so. The extended one should be just as negative as the original one so she can’t just bust out pressure and chip damage out of nowhere. If they were both -2, it’s not all too punishable, but the opponent can do something about his situation before getting caught in more block stun.

Just cause I’m focusing on Law now, doesn’t mean I forgot about the one I’d nerf first and foremost. She’s top tier in the most boring of ways…=_=

[Thancruz]

you must be delusional if you believe Geyser Cannon or Skull splitter is “fairly safe”. Been jabbed out of skull splitter on reaction before, while a good character I probably consider Nina on the weaker side of the top tiers due to poor defense and punishable specials.

[cg123n1]

you must be delusional if you believe Geyser Cannon or Skull splitter is “fairly safe”. Been jabbed out of skull splitter on reaction before, while a good character I probably consider Nina on the weaker side of the top tiers due to poor defense and punishable specials.

Stuffed =/= Punished. Punishment comes after. Stuffing comes before. You can indeed stuff her specials, but PUNISHING them is fairly difficult. I’ll agree that she’s on the weaker side of the top tiers, but her meterless damage is plain silly. I’d reduce it in some spots, so to the very least, a 2-combo-kill would at least burn one bar on most of the cast (a ton of dudes have less than 1k in this game…>_>).

[Thancruz]

Gc is probably her most punishable special, all the big boys from the defense force can punish me easily from a fucked up gc combo. Shit i cringe when i fuck it up cuz i know im looking at a boost combo to the face or even worse if its a top tier character. And even some of the high to mid tier characters have wtf damage, hei,steve,hugo,asuka,lili,bob, lars, dudley, just to name a few can put nina in situations she doesn’t want to be in. Asuka alone has meterless damage comparable to nina…just not the footsies lol.

[Dex_Sama]

Now we are arguing that Nina’s specials are hard to punish? Bryan’s mach breaker, that shit is hard to punish because it pushes you across the fucking screen so it being -15 on block doesnt really matter, ninas specials (except for EX blonde bomb… lol) are pretty punishable. Skull splitter is in the same situation as FFR, if you cant punish it, practice how to, and if nothing works, just consider the fact that shes at -5 at best, which means you can walk up and throw or if they backdash then chase down the backdash, because thats where her pressure ends, and yours can start.

[VolcanicAkuma55]

Law’s flash kick is better than Guile’s and its a motion command instead of charge? How can anyone in their right mind say that is great character design. Either remove the anti-cross up hitbox or make it a charge move…or simply make it to the point it needs to be as a motion move. Having charge-like properties is a fundamentally silly design.

cant believe im saying this seriously but…PREACH IT EGGY

[cg123n1]

Gc is probably her most punishable special, all the big boys from the defense force can punish me easily from a fucked up gc combo. Shit i cringe when i fuck it up cuz i know im looking at a boost combo to the face or even worse if its a top tier character. And even some of the high to mid tier characters have wtf damage, hei,steve,hugo,asuka,lili,bob, lars, dudley, just to name a few can put nina in situations she doesn’t want to be in. Asuka alone has meterless damage comparable to nina…just not the footsies lol.

In agreement. :tup:

But…I’m fo sho that Blonde Bomb is more punishable…

Now we are arguing that Nina’s specials are hard to punish? Bryan’s mach breaker, that shit is hard to punish because it pushes you across the fucking screen so it being -15 on block doesnt really matter, ninas specials (except for EX blonde bomb… lol) are pretty punishable. Skull splitter is in the same situation as FFR, if you cant punish it, practice how to, and if nothing works, just consider the fact that shes at -5 at best, which means you can walk up and throw or if they backdash then chase down the backdash, because thats where her pressure ends, and yours can start.

Yes if you’re looking for something beyond a jab. Not so much otherwise, but it’s not as easy as punishing something that’s blatantly unsafe, which is what I was trying to say. Don’t worry, I’m not too concerned with Nina’s safety more than her damage output. >_>

[Dex_Sama]

A jab in this game can lead to 300+ damage even if you just ABC launch that jab though…

[Darknid]

Guile’s flash kick has always been notoriously shitty against crossups though. You can’t really compare an invincible reversal to a move that’s used solely for anti-airing.

[FengShuiEnergy]

Honestly I think all overheads should be in the negatives’. For some characters th t can combo off their overhead naturally, if blocked should be punishable by all characters jabs at the very least. Same with eshio moon for Hei. a low that has range and +2 on block and easily combable on hit? yeah…that needs to go.

[EMR]

Guile’s flash kick has always been notoriously shitty against crossups though. You can’t really compare an invincible reversal to a move that’s used solely for anti-airing.

A reversal that mimicks the properties of a charge based attack to the point of being silly. As I said earlier give or take. If there’s any way to fix this damn move is to either remove anti-cross up hitbox or make it a charge move while keeping the properties. I believe that will make the move fair. Honestly, the anti-cross up nerf is what people really want more than anything. If I had to deal with Rose getting her Soul Satellite getting nerfed and having to block on wake up…I suppose people with a superior character on design can adapt as well. Oh, your life as a Law player is so hard. Oh my, the pain of having all the tools it is just not enough lol. (Sorry for the sarcasm, in advance.)

[FlyingVe]

Laws flip kick is not a reversal.

Flash kick is a reversal.

They are like… totally different things.

I’m not even arguing that Laws kick is/isn’t dumb. But this comparison is retarded.

[EMR]

Laws flip kick is not a reversal.

Flash kick is a reversal.

They are like… totally different things.

I’m not even arguing that Laws kick is/isn’t dumb. But this comparison is retarded.

damn…i think you miss the part where I think that it is funny that a move that is actually a motion attack is superior to a charge attack on properties. The comparison is valid to some extent. If the flip kick becomes a charge attack we will see a drop of braindead usage of it. I still think the only thing it needs is getting the anti-cross up property fixed.

Lots of attacks would be braindead if they weren’t charge moves. A world where Guile would flash kick the fuck outta you without charging? Think about it. ;p

[FengShuiEnergy]

I just want a new patch and a whole new balance update…this one sucked…I want my Juri buffs.

[EMR]

I just want a new patch and a whole new balance update…this one sucked…I want my Juri buffs.

i dont want my vanilla 8-2 match up.

[FengShuiEnergy]

8-2? who?

[FlyingVe]

Laws flip kick is not a reversal.

Flash kick is a reversal.

They are like… totally different things.

I’m not even arguing that Laws kick is/isn’t dumb. But this comparison is retarded.

damn…i think you miss the part where I think that it is funny that a move that is actually a motion attack is superior to a charge attack on properties. The comparison is valid to some extent. If the flip kick becomes a charge attack we will see a drop of braindead usage of it. I still think the only thing it needs is getting the anti-cross up property fixed.

Lots of attacks would be braindead if they weren’t charge moves. A world where Guile would flash kick the fuck outta you without charging? Think about it. ;p

But… Laws flip kick isn’t invulnerable… so… yeah. It’s also not anywhere near as fast. The two moves fill completely different roles in the game, with the overlap being that Flash Kick is an AA sometimes. Flash Kick is more comparable to an SRK, and SRK’s are already mostly better than flash kick, and they have a motion.

The comparison is just bad. BackFlip is almost exclusively an AA (a incredibly good one), a safe cancel (not a very good one), and it isn’t a reversal or a punisher whatsoever.