3201

I totally disagree, actually. This game is hella hype to watch, as long as people get over their irrational hatred of time outs. It has high damage, execution-heavy combos, great footsies potential, and the opportunity for good reads to pay off big, which is what you want. It doesn’t have a strict comeback mechanic (Pandora aside, as no one uses it), but SFIV didn’t really feature raw ultras very often anyway. SFxT also has one of the most creative combo systems this generation, and it’s constantly leading to people trying and finding new stuff with each team, which is very entertaining to watch.

If you look at Mike Ross and Combofiend commentating on the most recent major, I think it was Civil War 4, they started off watching SFxT specifically looking to make fun of it, and not take it seriously, counting the number of jabs thrown etc. but as the match (I think it was Banana Ken and Dieminion vs. Infiltration and someone else) was actually really really hype, they slowly began to take it more and more seriously, and by the end they were totally invested in it.

There was one instance where Dieminion pulled it back against the clock at a point where it seemed he just wouldn’t have enough time to make a comeback that was especially sick.

The fact that the game alone could convert people with an actively negative, denigrating attitude towards the game speaks to how great it can actually be to watch.

Of course things like jab pressure and repetitive tatsus are going to be boring to watch, but these elements of play are going to get weeded out by people getting better at the game (in the case of jab pressure) and the developers’ patching (in the case of unbalanced moves like Ken’s tatsu). But overall, I think this game is one of the most fun to watch, *especially *if you don’t understand it. Until recently I didn’t really understand how to play Marvel, and I hated watching MvC3.It just seemed like a jumbled mess where I could barely tell who was winning most of the time. Conversely, I’ve watched SFIV so much and so closely that there are only a few “oh DAMN” moments each tournament. The rest is just solid play or people making mistakes.

3202

i like games with limited options across the board, i feel like it would be easier for capcom to water everyone down and make it balanced that way. My problem with my own idea is that would it make the game enjoyable? The other thing is what if they go with just beefing everybody up, then we have a scrub fest. a medium has to be found.

as for watching the game, i find it entertaining when ppl play it “correctly” or at least close to it. as for small local tournaments i can’t stomach the game. i’ve watched small tourney GFs and both players weren’t playing the game “correctly” and i couldn’t make it past the first game.

Too many people are complaining without trying to find an answer first. If you find an answer and the answer is more complex then the problem is, then maybe we have a problem. Spending a bar or two to deal with something as simple as jab pressure doesn’t sit well with me. I mash dp instead. the risk is there, but i’m about 90% successful and then you get the respect from your opponent and they think twice about jab pressure.

3203

Then why, in the following CC Live, did Mike and Combo dedicate 1/3 their episode making a mockery of the game (by going online and trying to win using only tatsus and jabs)?

i don’t know… that’s a pretty big claim. i mean, the combo system has some flexibility (like the mixture of links and chains). but aside from the rare oddities that come up here and there (like flicker canceling, infinites, etc) most of the combos in the game kinda “feel” the same. i don’t know how to explain it, but it’s like once you’ve seen a few BnB’s you’ve kinda seen them all. and the easy execution (in most cases) also takes away from the excitement.

3204

Mechanisms that open for creativity IMO: links, chains, CADC’s, ex CADC’s, ex moves themselves, tag cancels into juggle comboes or ground comboes off of high hitstun/2-hitting moves, launcher, alpha counter into tag cancel, run cancel off of tag cancel, re-stands, supers, cross arts, cross assult comboes, pandora and gem-activation comboes.

Now I know that most damaging comboes doesn’t utilize all of these mechanisms, but this game isn’t all about max damage comboes all the time: You have different comboes for when you need to tag out, reach the corner, remove gray life, gain back life, make a last ditch effort comeback, get out of pressure, punish from different ranges etc. There is no reason for this game to only have the same comboes over and over, and just because most people aren’t able to use all the mechanisms to its fullest potential yet, doesn’t mean we won’t see a devopment in the future.

3205

My main contention for this effect, and I’ve been making this point for a while, is that there is a sort of unspoken boycott for SFxT, where all the awful decisions Capcom made in the release of the game (poor online sound, no online co-op on 360, the gems, the time-locked extra characters, the Cross Assault controversies) really made this game a whipping boy in terms of the community, especially as Skullgirls, an in-community game, came hot on its heels.

This had the aggregate effect of making people desperate to dislike this game, in order to buff their FGC “cred”. It clouded, and continues to cloud, peoples’ judgement of the game as it stands on its own. There’s a massive double standard whereby if some quirk is discovered in Skullgirls or KOF, it’s treated with affection or with reverent respect, whereas if something similar is found in SFxT, it’s leveraged as further proof that the game is broken and generally awful. This doesn’t add up.

People would genuinely write off the game over something so trivial as “Hugo is broken, does too much damage. If you want to win, play Hugo.” Two months on, Hugo’s middle-upper tier at best. Do people not remember saying the exact same sentences when Sentinel first showed strong in MvC3 Vanilla? Talk about a short-ass recursive cycle. The same thing is happening now with people claiming that “Raven/Ryu are broken”, “Jab pressure is broken”, “jumping is broken”, and so on.

As Jcool and FlyingVe have said, people need to learn the game before they pass judgement on its viability. The phenomenon with SFxT is that there has been a profusion of people eager to pass judgement on the game (because of the media and release controversies), but that hasn’t been matched by a volume of people willing to invest in the game and take it seriously. That’s why we’re getting so many ill-informed and ignorant opinions on the game mechanics, and that’s why so many of them have been negatively biased.

When Combofiend and Mike Ross are confronted with an actual high-level, hype match with four invested players who have thought about the game and taken it seriously, they can’t help but respect the gameplay, and yes, even the hype of the game itself.

When they do a show with the express purpose of trolling and making fun of a game, then of course, they troll and make fun of the game.

I think the same holds true for a lot of players out there. It’s decidedly fashionable to hate SFxT right now, but the people who have actually taken it seriously keep saying that this game is worthwhile. Hopefully the truth will out, eventually.

I qualified my statement by saying that it was “one of” the most creative combo systems, and limited it to this generation, and with those qualifications, I think it really stands true. Besides the mixture between links and chains, which I find quite fascinating, there are several other variables acting on combo creation:

-The amount of grey health a combo leaves behind (a function of the ratio of cross rush normals, normals and specials used in the combo)
-The amount of grey health you sacrifice in doing a combo, if it uses more than one tag-cancel.
-The juggle point system is more fleshed out here than in the SFIV series
-CADC is a high execution barrier that can lead to some amazing combos
-Tag-canceling for clever combos such as using Steve’s command throw to give enough time to fully charge Hugo’s super, or using Ken’s Tatsu to allow a full jump-in or max-damage combo from your partner

Maybe the reason you’ve been feeling that all the combos kind of look the same is partly due to the fact that people are still treating this game like it’s an SF game, when it decidedly isn’t. As for BnBs, this game has far, far more variety in the BnBs than SFIV series characters. You simply see more combos in regular play, and the combos change more based on the context of the match.

The overall excellence of the combo system is currently being brought down somewhat by slightly boring loop combos like Raven’s sweep loop and Xiaoyu’s sweep loop. These are very popular right now, so people can be forgiven for thinking, at first glance, that combos in this game are repetitive. With a few exceptions, nothing could be further from the truth.

3206

Well I think one of the issues with Raven being boring to watch is that his cr.hp loop raw or off of windcross is literally the best combo for him in every situation. Want to get max damage? Want to combo to super/cross art? Want to tag cancel? Always the same combo. And because his high/low sucks he opens people up with jabs or throws projectiles, because honestly those are the two things he’s actually good at.

His combos with ex’s add 5-10 more damage at max, so there is little incentive to do all the cool ground bounce/wall bounce/juggle/shuriken loop stuff he can do.

3207

Just wanted to post these again because they’re true … And awesome.

3208

Quoted again for truth. In terms of needing to figure out what the optimal combo you need to do in every situation is, you need to lab extensively with each team combination. In that sense, this game is much closer to MvC3 than SFIV- you’re only going to be doing optimal combos with hard research and familiarising yourself with the different contexts that each combo is best for.

The fact that Gamerbee won SS2K12 doing day 0.5 combos with Julia is a reflection of the current level of gameplay rather than the game itself… (although it should’ve been obvious enough from Tokido’s tatsu-reppas).

3209

As my post stated, I’m far from godlike at this game, so my Guile problem probably has an obvious solution, but here it is: F**KING FLASH KICK! I hate that move so very, very much. Wake-up High/Lows? FLASH KICK! Teleport mixup that’s off by even a few frames, assuming it isn’t predicted? FLASH KICK! Kunai on wake-up for lockdown? FLASH KICK! Now there wasn’t a projectile and an airthrow attached to that guy, I would get some ideas. However, my ways of opening him up rely almost entirely on guesswork because he seems to have options for everything I can think of.
Ibuki combos off of overhead? Got to find those. Maybe I should take a break from Steve’s combos and set-ups and try those. Pretty sure it would be better than teleport+throw/neck breaker/hien from half screen. Ibuki is not a scrub-friendly character to play or fight…

3210

I main Guile, so let me give you a little encouraging advice: Guile’s Flash Kick, while it’s a great reversal with huge range and good invincibility, does have chinks in its armour. To begin, it’s not as safe on block as other reversals, since it only hits once. Tag-cancelling it rarely makes it safe, so you can make Guile players wary of speculative Flash Kicks by punishing blocked ones hard. Beyond that, Guile is weak to cross-ups, and doesn’t chase down very well, so he’s susceptible if you get the life-lead and decide to run away.

The crouching forward > standing roundhouse chain I’m sure you’ve seen Guiles use in footsies is less safe than it looks, experiment with your fastest long-range normal and you should be able to punish it, which might neuter Guile’s footsie game against you.

That said, I wouldn’t play him if I didn’t think he was awesome, so even keeping all of the above in mind, I’m confident in the Ibuki matchup. :smiley:

3211

Hey guys haven’t been here in a while. I’m pretty hyped that sfxt might get an overhaul. Someome should really make a list and send it to the capcom community manager inthe UK. MATTER FACT DEv MAKE A LIST IN THE 1St PAGE WITH CHANGES THAT MAJORITY OF THE SRK MEMBER AGREE WITH:
More just frame links for tekken character
Time should be 120
Don’t give everyone the same damage value for lights meduim and heavy. Let it very from character to character. They did hugo right
In tekken the juggle limit got reset once from a bound (ground bounce) in one combo. They should add that
Damage scaling to be capped of at 35% not 10% If they do decide to put a damage cap they might have to adjust damage and hhealth across the board
Game should be a little faster.
And for my Julia make :f::hp: a overhead. It clearly is one but the devs forgot to make it =P

3212

i have no problem with jab pressure just for the fact that the chars that can doo it dont really gain much from it. with throws being 7 frames so wat if i have to block for a few seconds not to mention if he gets a throw he still has to guess if i will dp on wakeup or roll or roll dp or even backdash. Personally i dp ravens oh or press buttons or or backdash or alpha counter on reaction. and cammy has no overhead so what does it matter if i have to just hold downback and react to jumps. So if they did make throws faster and more range all u would do is make people with good pressure into some of the best chars in the game.

Throws dont need to be good this is a game about either footsies or high low mixups its not like sf4 where everybody has a throw/ frame trap mixups that leaves you in a bad situation. Not to mention if throws were faster many of the tekken chars normals will get thrown.

One thing i do think needs to change is ravens dumb teleport

and if they changed the damage scaling in that way then it wouldnt matter if u get caught with a stand jab or stand hp, and people instead of doing 500-600 dmg combos would be doing 600-700 dmg or maybe even more

3213

Like I said, people who understand what’s going on might like to watch it. But timeouts, even when interesting and strategic, tend not to excite the crowd. It’s fine if you don’t like watching Marvel 3, but understand that it’s still the most hype game for most people right now and tends to draw great stream numbers even when it doesn’t draw great player numbers. Don’t let your optimism get the best of you, there’s no sense in saying this game is one of the most fun to watch without understanding.

Anyway, I don’t a game to be rebalanced around whether the stream likes watching it, that’s stupid. It doesn’t need to be a spectator game. It needs some obvious retooling, but I wish we’d get more time to play first before Capcom would change anything. There’s a lot of natural and interesting evolution in this game and I’d rather take that as far as we can before having Capcom come in and wipe it out. Frankly, considering the way this game came out, I put more trust in our ability to balance this game in spite of itself than in Capcom’s ability to make it really good.

3214

Yet another comment from Dawgtanian on Eventhubs. I think Dawgtanian is a pretty cool guy. He reads all feedback and doesn’t afraid of anything:

"I actually read through every single comment I can, any where there is feedback regarding the game, you can bet I’ve read it. I compile all feedback, regardless of how big or small, and then I investigate and research it myself. This is where being a member of the FGC really helps, because I know the sorts of things that matter to us, I also know when someone needs to spend a little more time in training mode rather than crying nerf lol.

On the topic of the Pandora extend gem, you equip it to the chr that you are essentially sacrificing, which for me is great because I didn’t have any specific gems really for that chr on my team anyway. I also give my main chr the gem that adds dmg when activating a super, as well as the 30% dmg pandora gem. This means I have a 80-90% dmg combo pretty much guaranteed. It certainly spices up the game when playing against me, it’s not something anyone else seems to be doing, so it does feel like I have a rather unique strategy and I guess goes with the whole ‘my Ryu is different to your Ryu’ thing Ono was aiming for. Anyway, thanks again for even more feedback."

3215

Call me crazy by all means. But you can confirm into cross assault. (The one where both players come onto the screen for 3 bars). And with how easy it is to build meter with whiffed normals and CADCS. I just have this feeling that 2 on 2 play will be vital in the long term. To the point where you wouldn’t be able to survive on your own, as you’d be sacrificing team synergy. Just think about the possibilities…for example I’ll list a generic team. And people are SLEEPING on this games footsie game. I really do mean that. Can I sneak this in? Paul will beat Ryu in the MU.

Kazuya and Ryu: Obviously great footsies from both of the characters, and combos (especially Kazuya) that build a fair amount of meter. With a Kazuya that can EWGF and a Ryu that can finish his links…you’re looking at a TON of damage. Especially when two players are on the same wavelength. IE, Marn and Clakey D. For me, they are just showcasing what this game COULD be. I just hope that people embrace everything that was given to us!

As for balance, I’m quite content with everything, Yep, even Raven. PS, people complaining about Rufus. I’ll say this:

I hated the Rufus Kazuya match up when I first started playing the game. As I couldn’t get him off me. But you know what, I hit Training mode and discovered that Kazuya can stop that fat blob. There is an answer for everything. Never forget that and NEVER give up.

3216

I like watching Marvel just fine, now that I understand it… I’m not really sure why Marvel draws so many stream viewers even when player counts aren’t high, but that might not necessarily be an indication of people who don’t understand the game enjoying watching it anyway. It could just be that a lot of online warriors are tuning in, or just the logistics of attending the tournament weren’t appealing. From what I understand, MvC is simply huge in the US, I can’t imagine there are that many people in the FGC over there who don’t understand at least the fundamentals of the game.

Again, the numbers don’t lie, and SFxT is struggling to draw the numbers of its big brothers, SFIV and MvC3. To me, the question of causality comes to mind. You seem to think that it’s mostly to do with the game itself being not very fun to watch, due to issues like time-outs. Personally, I think this game was never given much of a chance, due to the various scandals surrounding its release, the general bad vibe gems and on-disc DLC gave the game, and the juxtaposed release date for Skullgirls.

People jumped on the chance to hate on it, commentators who were supposed to be breaking down the gameplay and building hype for the match were instead revelling in their ignorance of how the game works, and in a couple of instances actively killing the hype, telling the viewers how boring and bad the game was. When the scene rejects a game so fully (on release and in the few weeks following, mind, not after a measured appraisal of the game itself), it’s not really fair to place all the blame for the lack of hype and stream interest on the game’s mechanics.

It’s true that I don’t have much of an objective perspective as to what the untrained viewer will find entertaining, given that I almost immediately started investing a lot of time into this game. The friends I have who don’t play games but have watched a few matches while I was on stream didn’t seem to really distinguish between the three games (SFIV, SFxT and MvC3), except to say that SFIV was the most boring.

Then again, none of us are really able to judge what an initiate will think of the game, just by virtue of our being on this board. :smiley:

I completely agree with you that the game could use more maturing an exploration before major patches are released (obviously removing infinites and fixing the assist gems are pressing issues), and that we shouldn’t be rebalancing, or asking for rebalances to the game to make it more spectator-friendly. I just think that if enough people actually take some time (not much, mind you) to look at the game with fresh eyes, like I did with MvC3, they’d find a game that, while very different in terms of pacing and tone to SFIV and MvC3, is immensely rewarding to watch, even if you don’t play it regularly.

3217

True commentators should always hype the match and/or game in question.

However, in the FGC we get alot of guys who are just “hopping on da mic” between matches, and not real commentary.

3218

If there wasn’t a concerted effort by some of the “titans” in the scene to trash the game, Capcom would not be in this position. I, also, feel that it’s too early to re-balance the game, but hey at least the whiners/lemmings will be happy (or not). I literally had to mute the stream when Mike Ross and Combofiend got on the mic.

As far as I’m concerned the SF4 character rehash is my biggest issue with the game.

3219

Wow, this went from a balance thread to “I know how to make this game better”.

Can we just go back to discussing characters and matchups and leave the updates to Capcom? Please?

3220

Part of the problem is there is disagreement as to why characters are disadvantaged and that goes back to game mechanics.