Official SRK SFxT Balance Discussion Thread

SaBrE · 2012-05-12T00:38:17.000Z

Not every character needs an AA special/reversal. That would make the game even more homogenous and generic. Some will have a normal attack AA, or a special move AA. Just like it is in every sf, with an exception or 2.

Norieaga · 2012-05-12T00:42:46.000Z

snip

I performed a test in training mode. I did Akuma’s SRK as deep as possible, it traded 8/10 times. For the sake of fairness, I’ll re-do the test and see what results I get. For the record, I’m having some fun with this game. I’ve enjoyed making guides and combo videos for my Youtube page, and I semi-regularly contribute to the main Akuma thread (which I created). I’m saying this because I don’t want to make it seem like I’m just hating for the hell of it. I genuinely believe that my issues with the game are legitimate. But I’m open to new ideas. I’ll try what you said and report back later, perhaps even with video footage.

LoyalSol · 2012-05-12T00:46:26.000Z

In every game, some characters have better anti airs than others. There are characters that can do good without amazing anti airs. Also I have seen a lot of people actually going for trades with anti airs, to do more damage off of the anti air without having to tag cancel.

This isn’t a case of “some are just better” it is more of a case of “some just have trash for AA”

SaBrE · 2012-05-12T00:48:49.000Z

Ok but which dp did you do? Not all are the same. Plus he has other aa options. That maybe dp doesn’t handle as well. It’s called knowing your matchups and what will and will not work vs certain attacks, rather than resort to an all purpose move that stops everything(granted, some characters do get that luxury in some games, and don’t always become top tier)

Besides, trading with a dp favors the person doing the dp. You are effectively keeping your opponent out(he gets knocked down, you dont). Then you also have ex dp with 18 frames of invincibility. I don’t see much issues with aa in this game, hell I aa with Pauls shitty c.fierce. But I’ve played sf beyond sf4 to know not every character needs a reversal type AA. It’s silly to think that’s how it is

fatboy · 2012-05-12T00:50:42.000Z

Play a good character who can lower the incentive there is for jumping.

If you eat dp tag cancel full combo you won’t want to jump

If you eat raven cr.mk as an aa you won’t want to jump

If you eat juri cr.hp you won’t want to jump

Jumping is good against the large amount of really crappy characters in this game but the good ones deal with it fine

I believe that most of the complaints people have about this game would just go away if they picked good characters.

Totally agree…

Not to mention, players seem to forget you can beat jumping attacks with other jumping attacks. Like in MK 1/2, ST, etc…

Add: if you eat an CH jumping attack as an AA > Combo, you wont want to jump.

Jumping like a idiot leads to taking heavy damage in this game. More so in this game as compared to other fighters, especially with no meter.

i.e. CH jumping atack > cr. attack > special; typically leads to ~ 20%-30% damage with most characters.

Personally, like it.

SaBrE · 2012-05-12T00:55:14.000Z

Agreed fatboy. I don’t see where you can just blindly jump. Unless you are already onyour opponent applying up close pressure and doing crossup shenanigans vs a character without a good aa reversal. But that’s sf, not every character should have one.

I dunno, jumping is dangerous as fuck to do, and favors the grounded opponent. are we all playing the same game?

Dr.Grammar · 2012-05-12T00:55:40.000Z

Thats the problem right here. No one should be forced to choose top tiers with 1f reversals to win. Anyone should be able to win with any character. Right now its not very probable that Asuka could beat out Ryu. It makes for a shitty boring game. And for a game that 75% of the players already find boring, that doesn’t help its cause.

You’re a scrub.

SaBrE · 2012-05-12T00:56:35.000Z

And afaik, most if not all characters, have some sort of viable AA

Norieaga · 2012-05-12T01:01:40.000Z

Ok but which dp did you do? Not all are the same. Plus he has other aa options.

I used FP SRK, was told it had the most invincibility frames. I didn’t bother using EX because I know it will never trade; however, it costs one bar so it might not always be worth it. I’m aware that Akuma has cr. fp and st. fp - hell, I even provided footage of that in the basics guide I made for Youtube. The problem is that cr. fp’s vertical reach makes it impractical at the distance I use SRK for. St. fp is also less effective than the SRK. Also, I wouldn’t quite say that trading results in my favor. Akuma has low health (perhaps the lowest?), any trade can hurt.

I’m an SF2 player primarily, I’ve been playing ST and HDR forever. Some of the characters I played, such as Zangief, didn’t have any special AA options. I’m not saying that characters all need to have a do-it-all AA move that is brain-dead. What I *am *saying is that the level of trading should be toned down. Again, I like to be fair. I’ll hit training mode again and perform various tests.

Veserius · 2012-05-12T01:10:01.000Z

well if you’re trading with something that is fully invincible for 6 frames you have really crappy AA timing.

Trades aren’t random. If it trades 8/10 times and hits cleanly 2/10 times, those 2 times are the times you didn’t mess up.

NaokiB4U · 2012-05-12T01:15:15.000Z

That’s sort of not how competitive things work.

Also why do you keep saying 1f reversal when dps aren’t 1 frame.

Someone was mentioning before how what would happen if we gave everyone a invincible 1f reversal where moves were invincible on that first frame to counter the top tiers and if it would fix the games “issues”. Was just throwing the number out there. I dont really mean DPs being 1 frame.

You’re a scrub.

Yeah, I’m a scrub who wants a good game. Is it wrong to hope for a Capcom game that is more in the way of Skullgirls in terms of balance? I want characters like Asuka to have options like Ryu. Do you use the top tiers? Is this why you seem blind to the issues? The game is flawed, although the jabs/jumping/reversals are not necessarily the core problem of the game, they are big enough to warrant fixes.

fatboy · 2012-05-12T01:17:19.000Z

I used FP SRK, was told it had the most invincibility frames. I didn’t bother using EX because I know it will never trade; however, it costs one bar so it might not always be worth it. I’m aware that Akuma has cr. fp and st. fp - hell, I even provided footage of that in the basics guide I made for Youtube. The problem is that cr. fp’s vertical reach makes it impractical at the distance I use SRK for. St. fp is also less effective than the SRK. Also, I wouldn’t quite say that trading results in my favor. Akuma has low health (perhaps the lowest?), any trade can hurt.

I’m an SF2 player primarily, I’ve been playing ST and HDR forever. Some of the characters I played, such as Zangief, didn’t have any special AA options. I’m not saying that characters all need to have a do-it-all AA move that is brain-dead. What I *am *saying is that the level of trading should be toned down. Again, I like to be fair. I’ll hit training mode again and perform various tests.

Love ya. But do your research. (not trolling or flaming)

(1) FP. DP is not his best AA DP in this game. Mp. Dp is Ryu’s best DP. If your trading with the the MP. DP, its b/c you not timing it incorrectly.

(2) Though not perfect, Zangief’s PPP clothesline can AA plenty of aerial attacks (especially cross- ups). Especially initiated deep, and from a from a crouch position. (this is because it allowed the jumping character to fall deeper into Zangief’s invincible middle as the clothes line started. This fact was illustrated in the old, but very good HF guide produced by GamePro and many of the pro players of the era. This continued to be the case SSF, ST, and HDR.

SimSimIV · 2012-05-12T01:22:54.000Z

Love ya. But do your research. (not trolling or flaming)

(1) FP. DP is not his best AA DP in this game. Mp. Dp is Ryu’s best DP. If your trading with the the MP. DP, its b/c you not timing it incorrectly.

(2) Though not perfect, Zangief’s PPP clothesline can AA plenty of aerial attacks (especially cross- ups). Especially initiated deep, and from a from a crouch position. (this is because it allowed the jumping character to fall deeper into Zangief’s invincible middle as the clothes line started. This fact was illustrated in the old, but very good HF guide produced by GamePro and many of the pro players of the era. This continued to be the case SSF, ST, and HDR.

I think he means that FP was the best srk for Akuma.

Norieaga · 2012-05-12T01:25:00.000Z

Love ya. But do your research. (not trolling or flaming)

I was using Akuma’s FP SRK, not Ryu’s. Initially I used MP SRK to AA but was told by some SRK’ers that FP has more invincibility. Again, I’m going to go back tonight or tomorrow and re-test everything. I always saw the value of 'Gief’s lariat against cross-ups, but it wasn’t too ideal against jump-ins. I preferred cr. fp/mp/jab or even st. rh before anything. Or just block, sometimes its better to hit them with a reversal SPD.

And yes, love you too. I don’t even see you on HDR anymore? Then again, I stopped playing way back.

Naobki4U:

Yeah, I’m a scrub who wants a good game.

It wasn’t right to call you a scrub, I’d agree with that. The issue with balance is that there will always be a top tier. The goal behind balance is usually not to balance everyone, but rather to minimize the difference between the top and low tiers. Ideally the game would have 6-4 matchups at most. The difficulty comes with the fact that this game is going to have 50 friggin’ characters.

fatboy · 2012-05-12T01:28:54.000Z

I was using Akuma’s FP SRK, not Ryu’s. .

Ha, My bad…

Fp DP. Is Akuma’s best DP indeed.

I Loved ST/HDR. I am amped for the TOL at EVO!

roknin · 2012-05-12T01:45:53.000Z

Agreed fatboy. I don’t see where you can just blindly jump. Unless you are already onyour opponent applying up close pressure and doing crossup shenanigans vs a character without a good aa reversal. But that’s sf, not every character should have one.

I dunno, jumping is dangerous as fuck to do, and favors the grounded opponent. are we all playing the same game?

I’m nowhere near even a decent level but I often ask myself that… if someone jumps at me it’s usually going to be a bad day for 'em (I’m still getting used to some of the stranger cross-ups/jump arcs though).

Of course, I do run Juri and/or Lili often so… :razzy:

AcidicEnema · 2012-05-12T01:48:27.000Z

I’m an SF2 player primarily, I’ve been playing ST and HDR forever.

This might be your problem. Try using SF4 style SRK shortcuts (i.e., df, d, df) to ensure that you perform the uppercut from crouching position, making it hit ‘deeper’.

Yeah, I’m a scrub who wants a good game. Is it wrong to hope for a Capcom game that is more in the way of Skullgirls in terms of balance? I want characters like Asuka to have options like Ryu. Do you use the top tiers? Is this why you seem blind to the issues? The game is flawed, although the jabs/jumping/reversals are not necessarily the core problem of the game, they are big enough to warrant fixes.

http://www.shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/prelude-to-a-diss-some-preliminary-remarks-on-balance.1811/

You might not agree with some of this old man wisdom, but there’s a reason why SRK archives this stuff

thecapsaicinkid · 2012-05-12T02:10:10.000Z

I think I’m the only person happy with SFxT as it is. Actually, I’d rather it was as it was day 1 minus the infinites. It’s actually got worse as time went on with stupid assist gems and obnoxious colours being patched in.

Dr.Grammar · 2012-05-12T02:28:13.000Z

Yeah, I’m a scrub who wants a good game. Is it wrong to hope for a Capcom game that is more in the way of Skullgirls in terms of balance? I want characters like Asuka to have options like Ryu. Do you use the top tiers? Is this why you seem blind to the issues? The game is flawed, although the jabs/jumping/reversals are not necessarily the core problem of the game, they are big enough to warrant fixes.

[LIST=1]
[]The kind of balance you’re demanding is very rare, especially for the first edition of a game. There are good games that aren’t even as balanced as this one.
[]Skullgirls has 8 characters. SFxT has [S]50[/S] 38. Which do you think is easier to balance? Having played the final products, which game do you think has more viable characters?
[]Yes, I use characters who I believe to be top or close to top tier, to the extent that I even play this game.
[]I am aware of the balance issues, but I look at gameplay-related issues from the point of view of the top tier characters. This is why I don’t think jumping is as abusive as everyone is saying, but I think cross rush is a huge problem.
[*]I too think that things like jabs and jumps could use fixes/adjustments, but they’re not really that problematic. If those were the worst problems, I would really be enjoying the game.
[/LIST]

Solless · 2012-05-12T03:33:30.000Z

Let’s just get the new guys in already so people can start whining about how unbalanced they are, whether too good or really bad.
Lars for mayor of NYC! Take that Haggar!