Oh, Keits, what is the link to that video you did of how to dodge AT’s? And did you have one for Pokemon, too?
EDIT: Oh, and I updated the impressions thread just now; it’s rough, but I have what I could come up with as a first draft for a N/CP/B list.
Just type “Brawl how to evade assists” into youtube and it should pop up. Otherwise, vising the youtube link in my Signature, and its in my videos.
I don’t plan on doing one on Pokemon, as they have little to no AI and all but maybe two of them are braindead easy to avoid even in the worst possible situations. Plus, having a cpu throw pokeballs in random spots will be even worse of an example than having the lv9 pop assists and chase me down.
I still do plan, however, to do a video about Hammer counters.
Soccer Ball and Round Barrel are tooooo fucking fun in this game.
Awesome; thanks. I’ll be adding your Assist trophy video into the impressions thread; I’m using it as basis for putting Assists in the CP list (and because Pokemon are easier to dodge than Assists, I figured I’d put them in there, too).
We’ll see how it works out. Haha.
Well, yeah, you have a point. My main way to get around curry is to use ledge invincibility. Like with a lot of things. Get up on the platform when the opponent closes in and use your invincible wake-up to either push them behind you or pop past them. In worst case scenarios I can just avoid them by going under the platform repeatedly, but not every char can do that.
The delay thing is mainly the only reason I consider Starman. It’s little more than 10 seconds where the match goes nowhere in a lot of my experience using it. It’s also got that ‘spawn on top of people and fuck the match up’ effect that’s about the only part of the no-items argument I agree with (mainly when it comes to explosive containers; but I think they’re hardly the same monster they were in melee, much like everything else in Brawl).
I agree.
Exactly.
I’m surprised at some of the choices in your impressions list, Jack. I hardly think the Home Run Bat and Hammer are worthy of being counterpick. There is absolutely nothing about them that ruins any sort of balance with the match.
For Smash Balls, I guess we’ll have to wait to see what happens in Evo. But I still urge you to reconsider putting them on at least counterpick. Of all the items that need their testing in 1v1, Smash Balls are pretty much the number 1 due to what can be done with them.
To be honest, EVO is exactly what I’m waiting for. We need irrefutable empirical evidence in order to allow Smash Balls in 1v1 in any capacity, because as it stands there is so much theory against them it isn’t funny. If EVO works as well as everyone here says it will, then empirical evidence there shall be.
As for the HRB and Hammer, yeah, they aren’t patently broken, but they have a lot of power behind them and can overly punish for a single mistake at low % (maybe not a kill, but still not too shabby in terms of damage/knockback). The whole point of this new format is to have a neutral first match (or as neutral as possible), and so I went ahead and kept them in play but made them CP to make the first match of a set a little more even. Not to mention that the test tournament I held to test the counterpick system had almost everyone turning off either the Timer, Hammer, Bat, or the Ray Gun. Timer is now banned, and the Ray Gun is CP anyway thanks to Ray Gun cheese kills, so I went with the politics for now; we can always change it when the metagame evolves around the use of the items.
I’m also thinking about changing the counterpick method to ‘change two item’s statuses’ instead of one to accommodate with having more items to CP now.
Thats all it is… theory. In practice, Smash Balls work brilliantly in 1v1. They CAN also solve a lot of the game’s camping and speed issues.
I think it wouldn’t hurt to put Smash Balls on he counterpick list so they can get tested more. They actually seem more viable in 1v1 than 2v2. Messing around, I’ve seen that alot of Final Smashes aren’t coded well for 2v2 and will hurt your team mate–even with Friendly Fire off. There numerous times when I’ve killed my partner as Jigglypuff since there’s some stages where her Final Smash is near impossible to dodge for larger, slower characters (actually for alot of characters if positioned right).
Whew, it’s been a while (almost a month)… Sorry for the crazy downtime, but things have been really hectic IRL, so I haven’t had much time for Smash. To make up for it, I posted the impressions list for 2v2 play! Yay. It’s in the thread linked to in the OP. Check it out and give us input if you’d like.
Oh, and I’m going to be hosting a 2v2 tournament to test out the list August 9th; I’ll post more info on it when it comes (that is to say, when I update the main tourney page on All Is Brawl :P). It’ll be in Mesquite, TX, so to anyone in the area: feel free to come check it out.
So, sorry for the multiple posts, but it’s been a while since we’ve seen progress in ISP… well, until now, that is. Thanks to the hard work of a lot of people (including people here on SRK), we now have a certified ruleset. After a very insightful search on Google, I found out that early versions of ISP rule configurations have reached all the way to Denmark, and I’m confident that this new-and-improved version of the rules will fix MANY of the problems of our old formats.
Especially with the success of EVO, I’m confident that item play, when done correctly, can be a very valid style for Brawl, and with community help item play can be accepted and respected just as much as no-item play. Again, I thank everyone who contributed to this thread and I hope that people keep contributing as needed. This will probably keep evolving over time, and I hope that SRK can be part of that evolution.
Oh nice I’ll have to check up on this regularly, time to go read the list.
[edit] After reading the list I can kind of agree to it. Kind of sad the smash balls are gone but I see that they are in team play so that’s ok. Though why are they set to counter pick only in team play?
As it stands now, Smash Balls are CP in 2v2 because of the nature of a ‘neutral 1st match’. Smash Balls take a lot of skill to use/dodge/account for, but they can still change a match pretty drastically (as it stands now, with few people possessing knowledge and skill otherwise). Pretty much, the decision can be boiled down to a compromise; we know that this list will evolve, just like tier lists do, so when enough time has gone by for people to have the necessary experience for Smash Balls to be less influential then they are now, then they can be neutral in 2v2 (maybe CP in 1v1).
You say that you kind of agree with the list as it stands; is that only because of the Smash Ball ruling?
I can agree with this compromise. The only way people will get experience is through actually using them. My only issue with counterpicking is that people may CP Smash Balls all the time if they have a perceived ‘good’ FS (See: Sonic, Space Animals) or you’d never see it when the people playing are the ones with the weaker ones (MK, Marth, Jiggly). But I suppose that’s more theory than anything else, we’ll see what happens in practice.
After all, it can easily be argued on the other side that you’d see it most often used against chars with bad FS’, since the opponent getting the Smash Ball would be less punishing.
Do you organize only local tournaments or have you done some Wifi ones too, Jack?
I’ve done one online tourney, but that was a while back. It was actually my first ‘live’ (read: human) test of the ISP ruleset; to give perspective on how long ago it was, though, it was at least 1-2 weeks before we thought up the counterpick system. So, that tourney isn’t really a good measure of our current rules.
I want to hold more tournaments if life and time permits, though, both IRL and online. I was going to hold a 2v2 tournament on the 9th, but it had to be canceled due to venue error (they ignored our reservations and rented out all of our TVs…), which sucks because it got a mention on the front page of All is Brawl. Haha… But yeah, if I get an online one going, I’d love to post it here on SRK; I’d probably get more well-versed item players from here than SWF, sadly enough.
I’d think you would have an audience for that sort of thing here for sure. I know I’d love to participate.
You know, an online tournament just might be something that I could fit into my schedule, especially on a saturday/sunday. I’ll start working on that. I’ve never hosted a tournament related to these boards, though; are there any special places to post/special proceedures to follow?
The best people to ask that are BigJonStu and xSamuraix, but all the weeklies did was gather everyone in IRC’s #srkbrawl, then ferry the players off to #srkbrawltournament when the ladder was made.
I experimented with a modified version of the ISP rules yesterday: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=163397
I moved a few items around within the normal/counterpicked/banned lists. Of interesting mention:
-Very few people did item counterpicks. The only ones added in during the 2nd and 3rd rounds were the Bumper and Smash Ball. Bumper actually had no effect on the match though there was an “almost” where the person who placed the Bumper nearly had the placement work against them.
-Smash Ball might have been a bad idea. I feel that they need to be tested in a tournament setting but in the two matches they were used, they very heavily swayed the match and the person who chose to CP was the one who got the Smash Ball. Intriguingly enough, the characters were ROB and Mr. Game & Watch.
-Unira & Spring didn’t cause heavy problems. I was outzoned by a Unira but that was due to my trying to deactivate it so I could take it and use it as opposed to simply ignoring it and floating over (Jigglypuff @ Battlefield).
Yeah, you have to be careful setting up Bumpers. Many a time I’ve edgeguarded with the Bumper only to have the damn thing get me later.
Well, if you count EVO (and really, why shouldn’t we), they have been tested in a tournament. But yeah, I do think some more tournament exposure would do them some good. One thing to note: the purpose of counterpicks in the first place is to give an advantage to the loser (of the previous match) anyway. The fact that an advantage was given isn’t inherently bad; it’s the extent of the advantage that should be considered.
The only thing I really worry about with the spring is stalling (like with Din’s Fire and such), but that rarely comes up anyway. Unira is usually fine if you keep a level head (and don’t have stubby arms :P).
That was meeeee :woot:
As such, I would like to defend the position of why Smash Ball as a counter-pick isn’t bad with actual results.
First match, I win 1st game with Lucas. 2nd player doesn’t counterpick items. I lose 2nd game. I change to ROB and counterpick Smash Balls on. I get the Smash Ball like 3 times and win.
Second match, I lost 1st game with G&W. I counter pick Smash Ball back on and keep G&W and win the 2nd game…funnily enough I actually lose a stock during G&W’s FS by chasing over my ledged opponent too far with the Octopus. 2nd player turns Smash Balls back off and I lose the last game and the match.
In neither case did the Smash Balls pave my way to a free win of the MATCH. It did make the matches faster, more interesting, and added a level of strategy in terms of counter-picking.
is this still going on or did it die in a similar fashion to brawl+, but i hear that’s getting a slight revival too…