Seriously. Stop talking. You sound like a goddamn echo of the last two years and it’s just as ignorant and retarded now as it was then. If you decide to actually stop being a closed minded sheep and regurgitating the smashboards creed, then you can come back and try to formulate a reply. Until then, please, for the sake of this board, shut the fuck up.
sigh
If my strong support for the Items Standard Play, my support for inclusion of ittems before it was known that they were conferred random advantage, and the fact that I frequently take positions in start opposition to the community at large (especially my region, see: Planking, DDD’s infinite, understanding match-ups, etc.) don’t convince you that I’m not being a sheep… well then I think you need to re-evaluate who’s being the sheep here.
My points have been well thought out, I have not been abrasive in the least, I never even condemned items play (I merely was trying to illustrate that non-items play is better from a competitive standpoint, though ISP comes very close).
Remember, opposing the popular viewpoint doesn’t make you not a sheep, it’s just as easy to be a sheep in a sub-culture, you’re only not a sheep when you think for yourself.
Cynt, how come you guys always get so aggressive and resort to insulting so much?
Look, what I’m trying to get at is you’re here, where the viewpoint is drastically different from what you’re used to. You come from a place where items are trying to be introduced like if they were cooties. Here, ISP is considered NOT ENOUGH. It’s the redheaded stepchild of what we came to discover as the proper way to play the game competitively. Giving props to ISP here is almost as insulting as claiming that no items play is “better competitively” as fact, because, quite frankly, that thought is ignorant as shit. AT BEST, it’s a heavily biased opinion, and the core reason people stop listening to you here.
ISP will never discover what we have because they’re going about it backwards. It may be the only way for you people to ever even remotely consider items in any form, but it’ll never go anywhere. The very idea that “well, once we’ve figured these out, we’ll try this item and see how it meshes” is going to lock out the majority of them simply because there is a lot of counterbalance that won’t be shown without other yet-to-be-added items. As one that’s been in the trenches since 2002, I give Jack Keiser props simply trying to go into the lions den covered in t-bone steaks and slapping his ass, but I’d rather that community just not touch the shit to begin with.
I was under the impression that ISP started with all the items on and then we slowly began to drop them in favor of more balanced ones.
Negative. Started with the “socially acceptable” items and worked up. The first list had, what, 15 items, tops?
You don’t know the history.
It started with the presumption that all items should be legal and disqualified.
That’s the same way it started with smash back in the early melee days (and before anyone says different game, sure, but there are enough similarities that you can test based on the differences).
Personally, I came into the scene as an anti-items player since I opposed them back in 64 and i didn’t go competitive into well into melee’s lifetime. At that point I already had a competitive mindset (people complain about my edge-hogging, my response, “you can do it too”) but my recognition always was that they detracted from the competition because of their inherent issue of giving random advantage. Before that, I was playing Gundam Wing Endless Duel and camping with the best of them, no matter how much people complained.
Yes, I’m biased, but so are you, everybody is biased in their own way. But bias does not mean you’re incorrect, which brings me back to my core point which you have yet to respond to.
My core point is that their inherit randomness detracts from competition (competition being defined as something to select for the most skilled player possible), care to respond?
Remember, the game was designed with the ability to turn off items, so it isn’t like we’re banning something inside the game, it’s the use of in-game options in the exact manner they’re designed for.
That’s because the list began based on internal testing, the first list was put forth after elimination process had begun, but everything was considered a candidate.
I’m going to slightly alter the order of your post to show the contradiction now.
Incorrect, and you say so yourself here:
This. This right here. This is why it’s bullshit. No “go with everything, see what’s broken, remove”, just “let a few of us pick and choose what we think is broken after a little while of our own attempts and then let the public decide from what’s left”. This is the exact opposite of what we did. We actually left everything on. Everywhere we played. Every person that joined in. For months. We still don’t see a problem yet.
No, see, Melee had TWO YEARS of competitive play with items in play, only one of which removed only the freakin’ maxims and hearts. That means originally, at competitive play, everything was on until decided to be a problem. It eventually, over the course of those two years, went from all, to 90%, to most, to half, then eventually to none due to no other choice, not because they were all broken due to them being “random”. YOU, sir, don’t know your smash history. I, on the other hand, was a part of that history.
And now you should see why you have no idea what you’re talking about when you jump into the game well past its competitive prime and think you know what you’re talking about. Also, must I now say the age old line said here a thousand times here since Brawl came out? Random != non-competitive. There’s not a single random facet of items that don’t get counterbalanced due to a disadvantage, or something that one can’t do to turn said advantage INTO a disadvantage, aside from the 1 in 100,000 shot at random heart spawning in your face as you do an attack. And even then, that’s only a problem because you’re thinking in the mindset that the only thing different from the ruleset we’ve figured out is we used all items, you don’t. This is part of the problem.
Here’s the thing: be biased all you want. Just don’t bring that shit here. You might as well be Bill O’Reilly doing an interview on MSNBC. It’s going to go over that well.
Addressed above partially, but that’s the problem. There is an inherit disagreement between us here and you guys. Random facets of competition occur. Random does not detract, and if anything, heightens competition through increased adaptation. The items “randomness” are influencial through several ways, most of which involving stage control, a key factor that should already be in one’s gameplan, and rewards a more aggressive playstyle to maintain that control, as opposed to camping in order to control a smaller, positional advantage.
And this right here is why I’ve labeled you as a goddamn sheep. You’re literally saying the SAME SHIT THAT’S BEEN SAID BEFORE. Shall I go back to the many threads here, the many other smashboarders that have come in here and said this same line, damn near word for word? You’re like a friggin’ Xerox. And we shut this retarded statement, as well as the others you’ve made in here since this board was made here, time and time again. It’s getting quite old.
The guess what? Fight him for them. All it does is prevent the winning player from playing defensive, which is better as one player can’t just run away for the match once he gets ahead. If you go offensive, you can get the items for yourself. This also allows the losing player some kind of strategy to his next move, he can turtle and beat out a weak offense. It just adds to the depth and skill of the game.
And besides, the game does not look at damage for ranking. Items will spawn the same rate if both players have the same stock.
Wrong. Smashboards has never tested any of them. The test they do is sit with a friend (or alone) and try different things and then report back to Smashboards. It doesn’t help that a lot of these people probably hate items anyway and could just be doing to prove a point.
Testing has to be in tournaments. The Smashboards test are flawed as they are in a very controlled setting. Tournaments have real people who are just trying to win, so you’ll see lots of possible combination and tactics that you may not have done in a controlled environment. There is also a chance that something that seemed broken or not would appear to be the complete opposite when done in a tournament.
This is why EVO didn’t listen to any of Smashboard’s “test.” They were not done with other players.
@Cyntalan:On Final Smashes, I can see what you mean. One thing Warioman can do is juggle foes off the stage with his air attacks, but it is hard to set up. But, then again, Warioman can do some crazy stuff in general. It would really take a lot of matches to see if Warioman just has some crazy tricks he can do.
It’s a lot easier to do than one would think. Especially for someone who’s already a good Wario. Even Sonic has troubles avoiding Warioman. He’s honestly the only one that has a guaranteed kill on getting a Smash Ball. Sonic is the only other one with that possibly under his belt, but since it’s a guaranteed straight popup, some stages he’s going to only get damage (which, depending on the timing, may be a “might as well be dead” scenario, but not necessarily). There’s a slight possibility that a strong Wario could get a second kill, but I’d chalk that up to an awesome skilled play over “smash ball is cheap!”. The guaranteed one kill could eventually be a problem, though. Never gonna know though, so it’s kinda pointless to think about. :rolleyes:
Well, from my experience, I have a hard time setting it up on human players. On CPUs, I can get it every time. But people tend to give me a problem, but it may be that I’m not use to Warioman’s abilities (jumping and speed). I’d like to see a match where this plays out.
okay, so you guys dislike isp because…? like, i’m confused.
It’s a bittersweet like, actually. It’s great that you’ve got some in your group trying items… like a sideshow freak, and dumbed down to nearly pointless and WAY overcomplicated, but I digress. It’s quite simply that ISP went about it the wrong way and the whole idea originally behind it was the theory that we as all-brawl players would end up meeting ISP in the middle over time. This is a little delusional. ISP may meet half way between all-brawl and no-brawl, but considering how things are figured out, we’ll never meet. Chances are, if SRK still gave a rats ass about Smash at all and played All-Brawl since it was made, in 2-3 years time, we MIGHT have finally agreed to yank a stage or two, might have finally agreed to yank an item or two. And even THAT’S reaching. ISP isn’t helping the cause in this respect, because all it does is perpetuate the problem by padding the players to the point where they can barely see anymore (think rugby vs. football).
Just wanna say thanks for giving discussion a chance, cynt and keits. For someone who has avoided the smash community like the plague, it’s been interesting to read an intelligent perspective. :tup:
I feel like this isn’t going anywhere, but I guess I’ll reiterate my main points.
- I’m a little confused by why you guys contend that randomness (unless properly contended with in the game mechanics). The idea of competitive gaming is to pick the player who is the best, and the strongest measure of what makes a competitive game good in my opinion (kudos to anyone who can figure out who I’m a devotee of by this comment) is how much the game rewards you for reading your opponent.
Randomness generally knocks that for a loop, because great reads can easily be spoiled by the universe hating you (smash example, first game I played of 64, a bomb spawned into my f-smash). Granted, in some games it works, hold-em has no other mechanism for generating different conditions to read your opponent in for example, but smash already has a mechanism outside of randomness.
- Play how you like, definitely no hard feelings on my end towards item players, and I’d hope that you guys could feel the same way towards non-items players. Unfortunately, casual players and scrubs pretty much universally hate no items rulesets, and they’re extremely evangelical about it (in the same way the, “all you can do is throw” crowd is), that cause no items players to be defensive, but honestly, no “no items” player is gonna oppose you playing with items. Probably just not interested in playing it and thinks his format is better.
No hard feelings folks?
Goes back to lurking SF4 Sagat boards and practicing kara cancels while waiting for his christmas party to start
I think the problem here is simply the fact that you overlook everything that comes beyond the word “random”. The ONLY aspect that’s truly 100% random is what item is coming next (and technically, that’s not even true considering you know dragoon parts 2 and 3 are coming once part one spawns). Everything else has a lot of manipulative properties, to the point where it actually takes greater skill to keep the flow of battle going in your direction: adaptation.
The concept you bring about here further illustrates what you’re missing. The beauty of item spawn is that it forces people to MOVE. It also forces people to stop a wall of hate (see: Marth and MK for some of the more lucrative examples) and actually think on their toes. Then there’s also the fact it’ll puts the fear of continuing an infinite for longer than a small window. In the ruleset we came down to, it was 2 stock, 3 min, best of 5. The item spawn was set so that every 10-14 seconds, an item was going to spawn. Guaranteed. This means you have a good degree of predictability. You also have a 3 minute timer going on above you to assist in keeping track of time and thus being able to better prepare for the oncoming spawn any second and stop and think before mashing A like a monkey. It now becomes a risk to be overly aggressive by just keeping out a constant hitbox because there’s always that good chance during that window… kablooey. It’s not as though the game spawns it suddenly without warning and purposely while you’re charging a smash or swinging an arial at head level, because the intervals are predictable enough that it really becomes your own damn fault.
This another thing that you may not understand why there is such animosity here to the majority of smash players. There is a VERY vocal majority both online and in real life that will do what it takes to get people that actually might want to play all-brawl away from “their damn game”. It’s pretty much this aspect of the community that almost entirely killed Smash at EVO ever returning, and it IS why they won’t do anything more than just give the players a corner of the room. The whining, the rage, the boycotts… the overall evangelical attitude got so out of hand we frankly just got sick of the shit. Now whenever we see someone pop in and go “wtf random?”, we shit on them, because 99% of the time, they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about.
EDIT: The irony of all of this is that one at a time, as we sit their asses down and point shit out, the item ragers stop raging and start relating and understanding. Not all of 'em go “oooh, that’s much better”, but they all end up going “yeah, I can see how this is just as skillful”.
And Cyn, I happen to be one of those people. I have been shown the possible competitive value items can influence on the smash community.
I happen to be a smashboards user, and I can tell you that this WILL NOT WORK. Not because there is a problem with the items but because the players are not capable to give it any thought. This is a very very VERY strong argument, but the players will not see it.
I will try to get some people I know to reach this.
God I love this thread.
Oh I know, I was an active smashboard member from 2k2 to 2k5. After that, I dropped out of it mostly 'cause the members are so goddamn retarded it makes me crave for GameFAQs. I know full well the stubbornness of that community and I’ve given up on them entirely.
Oh wow this is amazing. I love item battles. How can I get involved and play some matches with you guys?
Ganon for top tier in items!
I’d be in full support of this except for one thing.
This would make the game completely revolve around avoiding/obtaining items. You can’t zone properly because there’s a risk of an item blowing up. So when your opponent approaches you, it’s a gamble whether or not he’ll succeed because of an item spawning. I feel that any sort of gamble not associated with reading the opponent doesn’t belong. The same applies to chaingrabbing your opponent. When I get a grab, whether or not I get the next grab should be up to my abilities, not up to a gamble.
If it were possible for items not to detonate or activate on contact, then I don’t think there should be any argument over whether or not items belong. But unfortunately there is no such option.
I actually really hope that this ruleset somehow works out, because Brawl is possibly the most boring fighting game I’ve ever watched or played.