Really, I always thought the best way to make a fighting game with closed-in formats of character tiers was to not concentrate on it. Real talk. Like the only thing I would focus on is to make every character the best character if you get my drift. I would give something to one character that only they will have and added on to that all the characters must have something cheap. I wouldn’t give a tactic or whatever to someone then backdoor and give something similar to another character. But if I were to do it. Each character would have extreme differences in their styles.
If I have a flying character he or she will be my only flying character. Then I have another character that has advantages in being in the air. But they will not fly. Instead they will have air walk, and can’t be up in the air as long as such and such with flying. Though the difference is this character is key for rushdown attempts while the flying character would be more runaway/punish. You see what I’m saying?
In the end, there is no balance at all with this process. But in some way it will increase the pressure of finding a character that fits a player’s unique skills. Instead of just saying, "Damn, what’s the point of picking this poking character when this other poking character does this also but it’s less work? “Well, time to take (insert character) to this tourney this weekend”.
Now it will be this: “All these frickin characters play so differently, each of them have something really gay the other character doesn’t have.” “That’ll make things a lil’ harder for just a handful of characters to outright dominate”
Now this doesn’t mean the “top tiers” don’t have multiple gay tactics at their disposal, but it does mean the winning % of the metagame for top tiers go from this:
Tops winning 90 percent of the time to Tops winning 75 percent of the time. I’d take the lesser of two evils depending on what fighting game it is. Certain games you kinda just don’t give a shit about balance. You just wanna play the game.
Aw shit. I used to love the hell out of karate champ. I got so good at that game.
There was like 1 other guy at the arcade that used to play me though. Everyone else would just wiggle the sticks around.
yup mirror match = no tier. A game like that would get boring fast.
If you wanted diversity, its pretty hard to make a game super balanced to where every character can compete and win tournaments. Isn’t VF one of the best balanced titles ever?
This list you speak of exists in Starcraft: it’s called favourable matchup. Eventhough even in there the win rates are statistically balanced, one party has to work harder to not loose, e.g. Toss vs Zerg is in the favour of the Zerg while Zerg vs Terran is in the favour of Terrans. Still, the overall ratio is 50% in each of this matchup when observed on pro-lvl (I can’t find the link reference, sorry).
So the tier list in this game is actually a meta triangle hich in itself is perfectly round.
After all those years, i can say that trying to make the “most balanced” fighting game ever doesnt mean that the game is gonna be fun and most played… just take MVC2 or 3s for examples.
Stilll i guess is just impossible to make a fully 100% balanced game, but you can make it at least competitive-wise for all characters… i guess ST and Vampire Savior are the most balanced games, i know Vampire Savior got their tiers very set (Sasquatch is a beast… literally) but all characters can win a tournament… maybe GGXX (specially #R) and EFZ are other examples of games that you can win with almost all the roster.
Wouldn’t FPS be a game with no tiers? You could argue that some maps might favor certain playstyles over others, and that the guns themselves are the ‘characters’, but at the end of the day, the person who has the best movement, aim, and yes, mind games will win. I guess the matchup experience that fighting games have can be related to knowing how to fight against different types of weapons.
In RTS, you are choosing different races, and inevitably there is going to be one race that is better or worse than another, no matter how minuscule that difference may be (Starcraft blows my mind). Fighters obviously have different characters. Hell, even NFL Blitz has tiers (don’t even think about playing the Eagles.) But in FPS, YOU are the character/team, you are given potential access the same arsenal as the other team. Thoughts?
Perhaps, but you have to factor in that each person starts at a different place on the map. That in itself changes what guns are at your disposal. The guns are still the tiers in the game. As getting the better gun and map position will help win.
Actually, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core is pretty close to having no tiers. You see a huge mix of characters in the tourney finals. I’m trying to think of a character I haven’t seen and I can’t think of anyone at the moment.
One of the reasons I think GGXXAC is like this is because of the way the developers approach the game. They make consistent tweaks to the games balance with every new named version. I wish all developers would put as much effort into perfecting their games.
People are totally missing the MEAT of this thread:
We’ve had tier discussions before. But, this thread offers the possibility of MATHEMATICALLY dealing with tiers and balance. I don’t think any fighting game has tried this (correct me if I’m wrong).
Is it possible to completely reduce a character’s “goodness” down to numbers?
-frame advantage
-startup frames
-damage
-hit box size
-hit stun time
-distance traveled during a move
-number of low/mid cancellable moves
These are all conepts that could be reduced to numbers. Could some giant algorithm be used to help make all characters competitive? Or are there certain qualities that just can’t be measured so exactly?
Sure, PERFECT balance is next to impossible. But, I don’t think anyone is looking for perfect balance. I think most people want the freedom to choose whomever they want with a reasonable chance of winning. A magical “balance” formula could help achieve that, couldn’t it?
Heck, using some of the data above, wouldn’t it be possible to PREDICT infinites mathematically? Or at least predict overpowered combos?
“Oh, and on a side note, you can use desperation moves. I guess it’s useful if you’re fighting against Donatello.”