581

I dunno maybe I’m an old dinosaur, but I don’t rely on frames to tell me when to attack. I try to figure out when someone is a masher or a blocker by observation and then proceed to do stuff that it’s in my favor. If I can’t well that means I couldn’t figure my opponent out on a psychological level (which imo is what SF is all about) and my loss is 100% my fault, even if my opponent played “scrubby”.

Bottom line there are different ways to shut down option select, I taught a buddy of mine I play with this pretty cheap option select method I figured out and I noticed when I would try to throw him he would tech or hit me with Ryu’s c. short almost all the time. I was like damn I shouldn’t have taught him (lol jk) that but there are ways I can shut that down, because I know someone who OS has that mentality almost always when he’s blocking, he’s not thinking anything else. W/e someone has got one thing on their mind, like looking for that crucial jumpin so he can anti-air, or going for the OS, or landing that Ultra, then all other parts of his game become weak, so his defenses are down in almost all other areas except that one thing. You gotta capitalize on that. That’s the way I see it anyway…

582

A big problem with os is that I can do it without thinking, I spend all of my energies think about their other options, and frankly it works too well. It can be stopped sure, but they have to go through alot of trouble to do so.

Frame traps are often not referred to as such in sf. Any jab pressure is frame traps, hell, outside of sf2, most of the throw game involves around scaring your opponent to push a button (with frame advantage), then going for the throw. It is really just a simple version of what goes on in 3d games.

583

SFIV is hurting SF

584

Gangsters are hurting SF, but in all serioiusness everyone is a new player at one time, let people have fun with it, its just a game homie lol

585

just out of curiosity, how was super-canceling received when it was first introduced in the SF series? because IMO, that made high-damaging combos accessible to someone who mashed out shoryukens…so was there backlash when that was introduced in SF3? (i believe it was SF3, please correct/flame me if i’m wrong)

586

Yes you’re wrong.

587

i dont remember it being an issue cause most people that mashed were easily beaten by blocking, plus there werent easy mode inputs like in 4, so mashers would usually mash out cr.lp and cr.fp instead of the actual move that they were “trying” to get. the versus series is a different story though.

i saw alot of mashers doing quite well in that series, not so much in any other streetfighter though.

mashing was never particulary hard to deal with imho till 4 came out cause people could easily mash out ultras and do crazy damage as well as they could mash out dp’s with a 95% accuracy.

but that problem was mostly when 4 first came out… it doesnt really apply anymore since people have there punishes down much better now.

imho.

-dime

588

frame traps have been in SF since the beginning. Don’t know much about WW but I know dictator has a loop in CE that can’t be jumped out of. Back in the day, people were calling it a loop, infinite loop, infinite block stun or w\e, the term has changed thats all. Frame traps have been in existence as long as SF has been around.

frames tell you the best possible places to apply a mixup or a possible retreat along with other things. Prior to whole move completing, you understand the position you’re in by a #. Its like card counting @ a casino. Sure, you can “feel” when they’re too many 10’s up there but assigning a # gives a much deeper perspective.

I like how mihai says SF doesn’t have frame traps, have you ever played against god like dictator or rog in ST? I doubt you have. Talk about frame trap BS for hella damage.

a lot of good players have posted some very strong opinions on sf4, hopefully some of this talk heads capcom way and they create some better mechanics for the next game. SUPER is practically done @ this point. I expect a shitty game, terrible online play and half ass capcom balancing. The current dumbfucks @ capcom can’t even use up to date netcode to so that more people can play their game, I doubt they have the proper knowledge to tweak the current game w\o fucking it up.

589

i still love sf4… i just REALLY hate crouch tech…

-dime

590

That is the best analogy for using frame data, that I’ve ever heard.

591

I doubt you know anything about who I have or have not played. I never said “frame traps” don’t exist, maybe if you actually read what I said it would help you out when you’re responding by making stuff up. I was scoffing at how ppl throw around the term ever since SF4 came out. You think I don’t know what people mean when they say “frame trap”? I know what a block string is, I know what a counter hit setup is. I know that it takes a few frames to jump, and so I sure as hell know what some made up term means.

Also, like you said, ST players don’t call the stuff you bring up “frame traps”. Rog has throw loops, Bison has block strings. Bison is not CE Bison he doesn’t have the crazy lockdown and not even AE CE Bison has an inescapable block string.

Way to try and sound cool by dissing me and accusing me of not having played GOD LIKE players. Way to try and sound elite by accusing me of not having a “deeper perspective”. People like you make me sick when you bring up frames and “OG knowledge” when $10 says you aren’t OG and you didn’t play back in the day versus anyone competent. Players back in the day didn’t go off frames, they went off proven tactics and experience. They went off instinct and reactions. SF is not math, numbers don’t help you win anything, they help you think you know how to play, but you don’t know anything because the only thing that matters is getting inside your opponent’s head, GOOD LUCK trying to do that with some worthless numbers.

592

if #'s don’t help you win anything, why aren’t you winning everything?

you’re just super good @ everything you do man, I like how you win every tournament you’ve ever entered. Do you actually play and win or do you post like you do?

99.999% of TOP PLAYERS use frame data to some degree. You don’t because you’re not a top player and thats ok, you can always get better.

593

You need to Google rules of logic. Just because frames don’t help you win, that doesn’t mean people who don’t care about frames win. There are plenty of people that suck with or without frames. You need good comp to get good.

And btw, you proved what a moron you are with the top player comment. Idiot, anyone who plays Street Fighter has some knowledge of frame data, it can’t be avoided. But knowing some frame data doesn’t help you win jack shit.

594

…and this thread had been going so well…

595

I shudder everytime Mihai posts in a thread.

596

He’s right though… having knowledge of frame data doesn’t give you a win, nor does ignoring it mean you will win. Listen to what he’s typing. It’s legit.

597

So to recap the logic going on here:

Okizeme isn’t important in Street Fighter because people used to only call it attacking on wake up. Also, knowing safe jump set-ups doesn’t matter because you can totally feeeeeel when you’ll get DP’d out of wake up jump ins instead.

598

Frame traps are big in SFIV because it’s a link-heavy game that has a Counter mechanic, and because it’s an easy way to beat crouch tech (that is, if your char has an easy frame trap setup). Games that don’t have Counter hits technically don’t have frame traps. Well, they do but they aren’t really called that. A frame trap is a pattern that allows you to get a Counter hit instead of a regular hit, either for more damage, but also to get more frame advantage so that you can perform combos that aren’t possible under normal circumstances. Only a few chars use them like that in SFIV though. Most of the time it’s just used to beat mashing.

I’ve never really used frame traps in any other SF besides IV, but that’s simply because they weren’t very effective because noone really mashed in previous games.

599

at this point mihai is just trolling… i suggest that people just ignore him since he seems to have no ability to form a coherent argument at this time.

-dime

600

To recap: There will always be a new generation of theory/paper fighters that love to talk big on SRK about shit they don’t/can’t even do when they’re playing. These people love to play the game from the safety of their keyboards where everyone safe jumps, frame traps are key to success, and counter hit link combos are the norm.

Long live the Internet.