and of course, you are more than entitled to this opinion, but i feel like you’ve just explained sf4 in a nutshell actually: it might have some things that draw people to the games that we’ve had in the past, but it also leaves out things that people think are classic street fighter, and this causes them not to like it. however, sf4 has provided something that other sf’s don’t, and i’m sure if you look around, you can most definately see the new type of player that plays it for slightly different reasons (for better or for worse, just like before) that people might have played sf in the past.
i feel like there’s most certainly value there as well.
I have to address this. While I’m no 3s EVO player or SBO qualifier, I have loved 3s since the day it came out. When ST players would bash it, I would always defend this game. I loved the game to death. It wasn’t until I “went back to my roots” and started playing ST on SBO, is when I started to realize what was wrong with the game. The problem with the game is that it rewards guessing too much. Now every game does this to a degree, and it certainly is true in the case of ST. But the problem is that the guess is virtually risk free and nets high rewards. While I can appreciate 3s and how methodical the game is, I can also say that it’s flexible for the wrong reasons. Yeah, I can run at some person all day and go balls out in 3s but it’s because I’ll be alright, because if the try to counter me, I can just guess parry, punish, and then hit confirm into big damage.
There is a clearly defined top player base in 3s. And it only exist because some players know situations better than others. Japan dominated us because they know option selects we’re just now inventing like then back of their hands, and they know situations much better. Still, I think an ever present, zero risk way of escaping situations is dumb. I still love 3s on a very casual level for sure, the same way I love Marvel on a casual player. You can catch me on PSN playing Marvel daily. But deep down inside I think both become dumb games, for different reasons mind you.
The point is, while I can’t speak for many top players who bash 3s or Marvel. I can say Marvel and 3s gives me the feeling that I can’t really control the outcome, because I never know when I’m going to be guess parried, or double snapped by some cheapskate MSP. I don’t get that feeling of randomness when I play SFIV. Kind of why I like CVS 2, because I always feel there is some way I can control the match or gain control of it without relying totally on dumb luck.
Well, there is P-Groove in CVS2. Not that it is dominant or even recommended (depending on the character it’s alright, tho), but the option is there. The problem is people act like having the option means it can possibly be brought into play at all times, or even counter everything else at all times. The Marvel example is fine because it’s a game element far more reliable than “lol now I’ll parry and win”.
Yeah P-Groove is in CVS2. And yeah, you can get some crazy stuff off of a guess parry in CVS 2 as well. The thing that CVS 2 did right with parries is that they made the window smaller, and made hit confirms much harder to do. Sure Sagat, Cammy, Kyo, and Rock are pretty beast in P-Groove, but P-Groove lacks a lot of things that 3s had. For example, you get one big long super bar. Waste that super bar, and you waste a lot of damage potential. It isn’t like 3s Ken who get 3, count it 3 fucking bars where he can ex has ass off, and still have bar to hit confirm supers. And not only that, he has some of the easiest links into supers in the game, even easier than Chun’s d.mk. P-Groove is one of the worst grooves because like 3s CVS2 is a game that revolves a lot around meter. Losing your meter decrease your chances of mounting a big comeback. Not every character is like this, a lot of SNK characters don’t rely a lot on meter. But it’s still important nonetheless.
From a design standpoint, SFIV addresses a lot of things that was wrong with 3s. It gives you EX meter, but gives everyone a fixed bar. And it gives you options as to what to do with your meter. Use if for a super? Use it for a FADC? Use it to combo ultras? It allows you get get around zoning traps at cost. And ultras are there, but you don’t always have access to them unless you put yourself at risk. I mean SFIV didn’t do a lot of stuff right, but they clearly create a mechanic with balance in mind after looking at a lot of previous games. Yeah they made Ryu and Sagat too good. But the only thing that is keeping SFIV from being more solid is the way some characters are designed. As someone who plays SFIV religiously and actually likes it, it’s the biggest gripe I have about the game. I don’t believe SFIV is any more boring than a lot of games that came before it. Particulary Alpha 3, which can be boring as hell if you choose to play it correctly. V-ism is death in that game, so playing that game anyway but straight bait and footsies is totally playing it wrong.
I know I can’t control this whole thread, but I’d like, for my part, to keep this discussion civil. I have zero interest in throwing insults across a message board. That being said…
See… that’s my thing… I don’t think there is anything else in SF4. Mind you, I HATE 3S… but I do have to acknowledge that it brings in a whole other element to the SF game. That element is based on guessing (educated or otherwise), and IMO punishes predictability to the point of taking options away that a defender has no business taking away, for such little risk… and that’s why I don’t particularly like it… but I understand that somebody might, and it makes sense to me.
For SF4, I just see less. I don’t see a lesser SF game, but with some aspects replaced by other new aspects that bolster the fight. I just see less. Mind you… I played SF4 for a little while… won a couple of tournaments… so I’m not just pulling stuff completely out of my ass… I just think that there is a huge void in the mental game of SF4.
I don’t know… I think DP-> FADC is just as silly as guess parry. Sure you can’t do it as much, but it’s a lot less risky than guess parrying is. But whatever… let me not pretend like I know 3S that much; I don’t…
I play against a guy, who I consider to be the best P-Groove in the world, regularly… and, to me, parry is just as silly in CvS2, as it is in SFIII. I think it’s retarded, and I HATE fighting against it. Luckily, P-Groove has other shortcomings that allow you to erase whatever benefits come from parrying. Still… I think P-Groove is really dumb to fight against, and CvS2 bolsters parries in a sense because in CvS2, there are a lot of really fast Fierce moves… Like Cammy 3-frame fierce, Sagat 4-frme Fierce, etc. which means you can net a lot of damage, by parrying small shit. Parry Low Short, respond with stand Fierce -> whatever… it’s silly.
I never really feel that SF4 is “empty”. Maybe playing against scrubs, sure, but playing against other good players is really engaging. A few rounds against Pamyu’s Balrog leaves me mentally exhausted for the rest of the day.
Maybe it just feels empty because, compared to the games we’ve been playing recently, it doesn’t have as much. There aren’t as many subsystems or grooves/ISM’s, and it doesn’t have the team dynamic either. I’ve always preferred simple though - I like CvS1 over 2 - so the game is right up my alley. From there, that’s just a matter of personal preference and there’s really no point arguing that.
But I do feel that the characters can be played differently. You will KNOW Poongko’s Ryu when you play him…I was at a random arcade during SBO, and a random Ryu pops up on my machine, and after one round I just knew it was him. The vast majority of Guile players play him moving backwards, but I’ve seen some offensive Guiles and they’re really something. I’ve seen Sagat’s who play the zoning game, and some who will just get in your face and stay there.
not one game is perfect at all…but I do believe that sf4 is limited and I do agree with Ryan Hart about most of the things he said. 3s shouldnt even be discussed especially when associated with evo Because evo is no where near top level 3s…you’re gonna get a very biased answer from “top” players in 3s because they cant beat the japanese who used to go every year and beat us. So why express love for a game that you’re not gonna win at. Justin told mii he didnt like the game because he’s barely good at it. Of course his standards are based off of his exp going to japan and competing there.
But to say that 3s has no tournament viable characters is bull, because the best Yuns and Chuns and Makotos in the states cant touch the necros and alexs of japan…guessing in 3s is going to be determined by the level of play you are faced with…playing issei at cf was a fucking block fest from both ends because, no, the risk was not low like many people wanna down play it to be…tell mii you guess forward on ken and he throws low forward to super…is that a low risk??
Point is, I love 3s, like marvel, admire cvs2, and i really really DONT hate sf4…i just think its limiting…and Im praying that ssf4 fixes that “tier obiding limit” because i like sf4, just not at low to mid level play
Frenzii- Agreed. You’ll hear some American top 3s players whining about the game and almost all of those players use the top 5 characters and still can’t beat Japan’s better players who use bottom tier. So quick to dismiss a game because they weigh imbalances over other reasons for losing like say having less skill.
I do agree with this to some extent. I think that SF4 can still be somewhat engaging against the right player. I still feel like there are things missing, that limit the potential of the matches, but, yes, the difference between playing an average player, and playing a better player is significant, and I can enjoy myself playing SF4 against a more skilled opponent.
I’d still just rather play that more skilled opponent in CvS2, instead; I think that would make for a better match. Incidentally, most of the players that do give me more interesting matches, are the same guys I can play in CvS2, or ST or whatever… but that’s to be expected.
HAV: To be honest, any game can be engaging against the “right kind of player”. I know I’ve had plenty of fun playing rubbish games with the right people. Doesn’t mean I couldn’t be playing something better…
SF4 sucks. Why? Cause I heard that top-players whose names I don’t know said they don’t like the game. All these things I hear must be true, and the reasons I can’t give as to why SF4 sucks must be legit because I’m really good at convincing myself.
It doesn’t matter that the old games I like to ride have lots and lots of problems. I’ll keep repping them in my basement until the day I die. I think that way I’ll get respect from my fellow posters, and maybe seem like an OG player. Man, I hate SF4 with a passion. I wish it had never come out, so that way we could be playing 10 year old games for the next 20 years. Just like Starcraft! Maybe I could be a 3S super star in the year 2032 and date Megan Fox? Mmmmnnnnn…
LOL at that CVS2 comment. P Cammy is basically the 3S Chun of CVS2. Bitch is mad easy to just throw shit with and win. You get a year and a half to hit confirm s.HP into level 3 super or cannon drill and s.HK covers the entire half of the screen and gives you almost the same time to piano link into super. I love using her cuz it’s basically 3S Chun in CVS2. Option select parry the fuck out of people and get free back fierces and c.MK’s into super. People get siked out when I hit confirm c.MP on regular hit into super with Cammy but I mean really…bitch has the easiest hit confirms in the game compared to other characters. CVS2 has its easy mode shit too. Thank god or I wouldn’t be playing that shit at all.
The only thing they did wrong with P groove was not give it any real defense against A groove and basically made meter impossible to use more than once or twice a round. So your first 2 character’s basically have to be battery types that can do combos that actually hurt people without meter.
Hav brought up a good point about parries in CVS2 as well. Parrying in CVS2 is basically easier than it is in 3rd Strike. Sure you have more frames to parry a move in 3S (nearly 10 frames) but that doesn’t matter when 3S has WIDELY VARYING animations and frames on attacks. Whereas everything in CVS2 has the ST effect where it all executes in similar frames so you just press forward or down when you think someone is gonna jab or low poke and you get a parry. For someone who’s been parrying in 3S for a long time CVS2 is basically just looking to parry the same shit since everything comes out in the same frames. There’s not a whole lot of ambiguity as far as when to parry things. People are just trying to condition you with the same poke over and over again and that fucks them over against P groove. Which is why people generally play really off the wall and try to throw or neutral jump randomly when you have it since the game isn’t like 3S where characters are purposely given moves with ambiguous or lengthy animation frames.
I don’t really consider parries in the same context just because I believe there is still more risk associated with a parry than with block strings that can be mashed inbetween or shoryus that are completely safe on block for the cost of 2 meters. Try parrying Ken’s c.MK when he has more than one meter and punishing it against someone good and see what happens. You don’t get to hit him that’s for sure. You have to be looking for opportunities to bait his attacks and punish his shit. Parries are not in the same respect as the lame reversal shit in SFIV because most of the dumb shit in SFIV can’t be thrown. The threat of shoryu FADC Ultra is so strong because there is nothing offensive that beats it. So sitting there and blocking it or walking forward and back hoping to bait it is the only thing you can do. A good Ryu player will not actually use the FADC Ultra but hold on to it so you won’t press buttons at him. This is why people don’t press buttons in SFIV and shit doesn’t tend to really ever pop off in a lot of matches.
This is considering the fact that only certain characters in SFIV even have access to this ability while everybody in 3S can parry. SFIV is just boring for me because you have the characters that can just stop offense on a dime and then you have those…that can’t and entire game is forced around trying to make some sort of offensive against people who just want to gay them out. There’s not much else to the matchups other than which character gets to do less work and be more gay. I just want the characters to at least have more options to deal with shit in Super. I mean they shouldn’t have a failsafe for everything but no more C.Viper vs. Honda’s or Sagat vs. Zangiefs. That shit was actually interesting when people actually had broke ass shit which made matchups bad. Now matchups are just bad because one characters can do anything and the other character…can’t. On top of that SFIV has health ratios so some characters get to block with their face in these bad matchups as well. There’s no big damage turn around if your ultra setups are impossible to land.
As for O.Ken…shit doesn’t do as much damage as FADC Ultra so you have more incentive to just chill and block it to begin with. The rest of ST is basically more offensive than SFIV so it really doesn’t matter what he can do any ways. I still have more reason to attack O.Ken than Ryu sitting on 3 or 4 meters and Ultra in SFIV. I do agree that shoryu FADC Ultra isn’t the worst thing to happen to SFIV in a long shot but it sure ain’t doing nothing good for the game either. Just teaching scrubs that it’s ok to shoryu and not actually learn the damned game. Then of course the same shit seeps over into high level play and you have good players not being creative with block strings or taking any real risks because FADC Ultra will cut through it like butter. So they sit on meter and people have a good time not really doing a whole lot but basic strings and looking for jump ins cuz everything else will get slammed by SFIV.
So with that I really do hope that they are doing all they can to make Super SFIV more offensive because right now there’s not a whole lot of incentive to press offense in that game in a lot of matchups. Most of the world warrior/CE characters are reduced to dry low damage, weak versions of their former selves (Dictator, Dhalsim, Guile etc.)