New MvC2 versions tourney viable?

[Gotcha]

I’m well aware that dc is the closest to arcade…

In reality it seems you do not know what I’m talking about. I made no comparison to arcade at all. There’s no real reason to since we know that having enough coin-ops for these tourneys is NOT an option. It never was even when there happened to be 10 times more machines in service.

My point is that even the original arcade was “broken” in terms of how one might consider a fighting game in terms of balance and engine… …I don’t see ANY perfect version at all. There never was. We just loved it anyways.

If you have a vision of perfection based on the dc version it is only b/c you are used to its broken nature more so than you are used to its broken nature on ps3. Basically making the argument that the best way is the way it used to be based on the fact that it used to be that way.

In terms of final result it will come down it what it always does with fighting games… adapt… that’s it. Thankfully there is very little adaptation needed.

I would expect someone who knows the engine as well as you and has studied frame data for so many toons and the tiny nuances of the engine for so long to be bugged by the minor differences. Like a lot of people. Not saying it doesn’t bug me at all… but I’m very glad that mahvel has a future and I feel like it would be a step back to not move fwd using the new versions for tourneys (especially given that the future of mahvel are all learning the game now on ps3 or 360).

Thus is my point. We serve the game we love poorly by not supporting its future but instead looking to its past. You have to ask yourself what’s best for mahvel. Do I serve the game best by pleasing the very small following of old mahvel and sticking with dc… or pleasing the 20 million potential entries who just bought the game 4 months ago for ps3 or 360? Wouldn’t they be as miffed at using the dc version as you are at using ps3? Do they not pay the same entry fee you do? It’s all about perspective… like everything else…

You won’t convice me that someone who just started playing on nextgen recently is gonna jump for joy when they show up at a national and see a 10 year old version they have never played before being used. Given that the majority of the games current fan base now fall into this category… and that every new fan to the game at this point… will also fall into this category… yea…

Personally I prefer arcade in terms of game versions… but I prefer the success of the game overall and it supersedes my own desires.

Very good post, completely agreed.

[Gotcha]

Titan you’re taking SRK way too serious IMO. :encore:

Everybody tends to see anyone disagreeing with them as if the other party is shoveling shit their way or overly p.o.'d or something. If ppl think you’ll be offended by a neg rep, they’ll do it, bc it easy and anonymous and kinda funny. In fact expect to get a few more :]

Don’t worry about it, stick around and keep posting bc the Marvel 2 crew needs that low tier dedication. You’re well on your way through the ‘proving period’ which is a reality like or not. Pretty soon the game will click in a new way and you’ll really be helpin people out.

Back to the topic though–

Meditations on Marvel 2.1 or ECGief Tells It Like It Is

Here’s why Marvel is a special case (and why I can really appreciate Shoultz’ apprehensive position on the future of this new generation of ports)–

It goes like this-- the more you knowledge you accumulate about this particular game’s engine, the more you realize that it’s a fuckin MIRACLE of accidental game design that everything came together the way it did. This is NOT Super Turbo-- the product of years and years and years of a heavily played international sensation, painstakingly balanced through trial and error through multiple revisions. This game was never meant to be taken as seriously as it is, but it wound up being the most balanced utterly broken game ever.

I really enjoyed this post as well, I’ve been trying to articulate the same type of thoughts for quite some time.

To shorten, I offer the following analogy, SAT style:

Marvel : games :: Earth : universe -in the case of both, it’s a fucking miraculous 1 in a million accident that both were able to sustain what they have.

[Anotak]

this included the busted d+normals

what does this refer to?
I tried looking in the 360/ps3 bug database and other places and I couldn’t find anything on it.
I’m not very good at marvel, so I apologize if this is something extremely obvious

I see a lot of people say “this version’s fucked up” but they’re not really sure why, I want to know what’s wrong with it…
thanks in advance

[shoultzula]

what does this refer to?
I tried looking in the 360/ps3 bug database and other places and I couldn’t find anything on it.
I’m not very good at marvel, so I apologize if this is something extremely obvious

I see a lot of people say “this version’s fucked up” but they’re not really sure why, I want to know what’s wrong with it…
thanks in advance

reading comprehension?

MULTIPLE people posted up why the newer versions sucks. If you even glanced @ this thread, you’d realize that.

[System_1]

^-- Are you talking local PS3 play? X360 is the worst. PS3 local is a full grade better, in my book. =\

Don’t have a ps3, I was just going off what I had seen when it first launched (the only time I touched it or seen it played on ps3). I mean if it doesn’t drop frames then probably other issues could be worked around. But dropping frames = no good.

And to mogwaimon, i understand a dreamcast may not last as long as a NES. i never argued that, all i was saying is that if you ever wanted a perfect arcade port, dreamcasts will be available for a VERY long time. so the dreamcasts are going to run out soon comment just isn’t true.

[mogwaimon]

Yea, I understand. I may have missed the point on that, but you’re right. Besides even if all the DCs mysteriously die off in 2015, chances are Naomi emulation will be near-perfect by then and maybe MvsC3 will be here, or even a perfect port of 2. Dreamcasts rock either way, though. Used to be the best system for fighters until the PS2 library got some major expansion, IMO.

[MadTitan]

…

I can’t speak for the 360 version but d+normals are the only thing I find consistently odd on ps3… and you can’t notice it on most normals. It makes mag’s rom harder to execute which is fine by me… if anyone in the game needed any kind of nerf… it was he…

cyke’s inf is a fun little loss… but not something that willl greatly affect tourney play… some loss of instant overhead quality does hurt a few low tiers tho… just gotta retrain yourself in initiate the move a few frames sooner…

[eczangief]

fixed: ;]

some loss of instant overhead quality does hurt a few low tiers tho… just gotta retrain yourself to initiate the move a few frames sooner and learn how to anticpate the random frame drops by using magical powers…

[Anotak]

reading comprehension?

MULTIPLE people posted up why the newer versions sucks. If you even glanced @ this thread, you’d realize that.

woah, woah, I did. I see that it’s not DC-perfect or arcade-perfect (the DC version as I understand had some minor differences from arcade as well). I know that the 360 version is completely fucked up as far as loading super jump textures and whatnot. I read the posts about how marvel is a complete miracle that with all the fucked upness it’s still playable, and how slightly changing that might destroy everything. I already knew that it’s a completely a miracle that we have as many playable top tier teams as we do.

The only CONCRETE issues I’ve seen mentioned are issues relating to Hulk doing less damage, who is such a low tier character that I’ve never seen anyone at any tournament use him ever… so in a way it’s not as relevant as an issue with the top tiers would be.
The other one is the d+normal thing that I do not know what it refers to.
eczangief says “cyke infinite is gone. If its still there its totally different. Magneto has to cancel his rom very early now because of d.lk recovery time”. I believe him. I do not understand why this is though? (this might explain why my friend who learned the rom on the dreamcast version keeps fucking up when we play on ps3)
This d+normal issue sounds like it completely cripples this version of the game, but I don’t even understand what it is and I can’t find an explanation for it.

I just wanted to know what the d+normal bug is, no need to rage at me.

[MadTitan]

…

360 drops frames like mad… not much you can do…

dc drops like 1 in 6 frames or something… but its at least at a consistent rate…

ps3 drops like frame liks dc… but can also drop a couple extra when certain moves start up… learn which moves and yer rdy for it…

[System_1]

360 drops frames like mad… not much you can do…

dc drops like 1 in 6 frames or something… but its at least at a consistent rate…

ps3 drops like frame liks dc… but can also drop a couple extra when certain moves start up… learn which moves and yer rdy for it…

I’ve never heard anything about dc marvel dropping frames…not saying it isn’t true, its just the first time i’ve EVER heard such a thing.

[eczangief]

^^

It most definitely does, and so does the arcade version. Every 5th frame of animation/hitbox information is skipped on the Turbo setting. And the stages on DC Marvel also vary in their effect on particular combos and general randomness, but this effect is really subdued and will go unnoticed unless you spend a LOT of time with the game.

Anyway, Madtitan’s view isn’t flawed or anything-- its pretty righteous to support the version as it is now in the hope that it is patched further. But as it stands, there’s NO WAY that even the PS3 version is tournament ready.

[Magnetro]

When I tested all the frame skipping issues on the PS3 and 360, I found that both drop equally when they’re in higher than native resolutions.

But when you play in 480p, it’s the same as the DC. We did 100% technique calibrations on the PS3 and 360. EX: Magneto the infinite of [HP29/LK]

So in the case of dropping inputs, it might have to do with lag or extra slowdown that occurs on the newgen consoles.

[MadTitan]

When I tested all the frame skipping issues on the PS3 and 360, I found that both drop equally when they’re in higher than native resolutions.

But when you play in 480p, it’s the same as the DC. We did 100% technique calibrations on the PS3 and 360. EX: Magneto the infinite of [HP29/LK]

So in the case of dropping inputs, it might have to do with lag or extra slowdown that occurs on the newgen consoles.

thnx for the info… I’d be interested to have a ps3 owner play a low stress stage, on 480p, w/classic spites, min input lag, and wired instead of wireless… local game as well… align all these stars for comparison… and try mags rom…

I would but I no longer own a dc for comparison… i bet with all these factors… there is little if any noticeable diff…

[Magnetro]

Well, that’s basically what I tested the most over there. There weren’t any problems except that they couldn’t fix Magneto’s air 2LK and air MP. Other than that, I could program and get things to work right.

It’s just that it doesn’t run as the DC version does in respect to slowdown. There are situations in the DC where the slowdown is guaranteed to occur (almost anything involving icebeam or captain sword), and on the PS3 version, it wouldn’t happen. However, the PS3 would have different moments of slowdown. So this is something people are going to have to get used to. It’s just a matter of hardware architecture, there isn’t anything else that can be done.

[MadTitan]

…

I can ROM in training pretty easy from what I just tested. A bit tighter… but I’m not that great at it anyways… i don’t play magnus anymore. Got like 24 hits on my second attempt tho. I’m sure there are other factors tho… like the stage or what other moves might be going on.

this is ps3 btw

[eczangief]

I can definitely see where Evo is coming from as far as dropping DC Marvel, at least in terms of the logistics of running the tournament. You have to supply a setup unique to one game, tune up/replace DC’s and every year more people are walking away with a couple more PS2->DC converters. Probably got old fast but they put up with it for a long time, so yeah, can’t blame them for pushing for PS3 as the new Marvel standard since its infinitely more convenient. There’s also the fact that Marvel on PS3 probably means easily doubling the number of entrants, bc hey you’re in Vegas, may as well roll the dice and play a little of Capcom’s Beer Pong aka Marvel right?

When it comes down to it, it’s not as if people are going to boycott Evo bc of something like this, bc 99% of people can’t argue with the above logic. I’d play Marvel on PS3 versus some of the best players in the world if that’s what the standard was, shit, I’d play Marvel on an Etch-a-Sketch.

Still, DC Marvel is going to be the biggest side tournament in Evo history.

[New_Era_Outlaw]

I should hope so. DC may be accurate, but that doesn’t make those horrible control pads any better. Hate using those…hurts my fingers to use it.

[MadTitan]

…

Very few people have the thumbs to play mahvel on a pad… that being said… yes… the dc pads suck!! I got decent thumbs and there’s not much I can’t do on a playstation pad… but dc… yuck…

stick will always be where it’s at for mahvel tho… even if people could play at 100% on pad… they’d still roll with stick just for the nostalgia factor with this game.

[mogwaimon]

What’s with the DC pad hate? I thought it was pretty good back in the day.

…Then again now that I am trying stuff out it is pretty imprecise. I’m trying to learn AHVB x3 on DC pad and I can only get one AHVB out XD It’s probably me being unskilled, but he’ll either end up doing it on the ground or SJing way up high and doing his j.HP instead. But it never really hurt my thumbs or anything way back when I’d play fighters all day on it, and it is a hell of a lot better than Xbox pad