New matchup thread being made....rejoice!

[Gamogo]

@Gamogo

I too started SFIV maining Gouken and switched to Akuma. The reason I did, without going into the whole “console characters suck” thing, is that Gouken is really underdeveloped. While being one of the best console chars, he lacks what is necessary to do well in high level play.

I’ll try not to derail in an Akuma forum, though there is mostly Akuma stuff among this babble anyway.

I commented on my recent Gouken disdain in this post which you may find interesting:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7162959&postcount=997

I think you nailed it by stating the fact that he is under-developed. They were onto something really good with Gouken, but just didn’t quite think through his implementation properly. I look forward to seeing where the character goes in follow-ups to IV however. With a little work, he will be a monster. I will continue to use him, though my focus right now is seeing how well I can get Akuma to work for me.

Anyway, I’d also like to get an opinion…do you fell Akuma’s flip is slower than Gouken’s? I seem to have a much harder time punishing fireballs from full screen…

Akuma’s demon flip lacks the smooth trajectory Gouken’s enjoys which is just plain in part due to the fact that he is a different character with a different feel. Gouken’s flip feels more refined and precise to me but has a higher and larger arc whereas Akumas seems snappier and a bit more stilted. Because of Gouken’s higher flip arc, it is much easier to lob yourself over projectiles without risk but with Gouken’s comes a loping, lagging motion.

I liken Gouken’s flip as like lobbing a ball underarm in a slow and steady motion, whereas Akuma’s is like hurling a ball overarm a little faster and not as high. This may sound weird to those not familiar with Gouken, but it is the best ‘comparison’ I can make. Again, they are different characters so it is a lot like comparing apples and orange or SRKs between the various shoto clones.

Akuma’s demon flip is still quite straight forward to accurately pitch over fireballs and it works well and I feel is faster in many ways. As a player transitioning from Gouken to a Akuma you just need to get a good feel for the subtle differences. Its essentially the ‘same’ move but actually has a very different feel.

Akuma’s dive kick can be blocked low as I understand it, whereas Gouken’s can’t. Both dive kicks stand opponents up when they successfully connect which aids in completing a combo. Akuma’s dive kick appears to have a massive hitstun, which pretty much guarantees you the ability to follow it up with a damaging combo whereas Gouken’s requires you to place it quite deep to guarantee that follow up combo.

Both grabs seems comparable in terms of range and effectiveness though I miss Gouken’s immediate recovery over a downed opponent and the perfect positioning it leaves you in to immediately cross-up with j.mk. Akuma still is well placed for his various mix-up options on wake up however, of which he has MANY more.

I miss demon flip parry but I love Akuma’s armour smashing hammer fist with lightning recovery than can also be intentionally whiffed for mix-ups upon landing. With Gouken we can whiff the grab to invoke a mix-up but it isn’t near as snappy nor as effective. Sometimes I’ll whiff the hammer fist with Akuma and be throwing opponents before I realise it. The recovery is just that fast.

Akuma’s slide attack I find inferior to Gouken’s which is one tool I actually miss. Again, its a character trait that is simply different and I just need to adjust and consider my other options with Akuma which Gouken doesn’t have - such as the hammer fist, red fireballs and Akuma’s strong ability to tango in fireball fights compared with Gouken.

The EX versions of the flip for both characters work fundamentally the same with them delivering you almost immediately to be right in the face of your opponent irrespective of distance and be perfectly positioned to do whatever you please from a dive kick combo opener to a throw/grab. No real differences there. Both are fast as hell. Both are great “surprise, asshole!” punishers for turtles who cower in the far cover. With Akuma its nice being able to whip out an EX demon flip > hammer fist to smash to the ground people who idly wind-up their focus attacks from a distance.

But you know what is really nice? Hit confirms. Gouken has none. Akuma has scores of them. You can go from a c.lk hit-confirm into some of Akuma’s most devastating combos. This is a huge fundamental of Akuma’s game which doesn’t even ONCE factor into Gouken use. It is a huge and rewarding transition.

I trust this helps but I think its important to realise that both characters are really quite different beasts entirely. A long time ago I told myself to avoid the common shoto comparisons made against Gouken because he is quite simply a different and unique character in his own right. The Akuma/Gouken comparison does have a few parallels with the demon flip and its fundamentals in many ways being similar but I think the similarities end there.

Its a weird transition though, right? While Gouken is no Zangief, he can get beat up and not cry about it as much as his little brother. Hell, Akuma sheds tears and 30% of his energy over a scraped knee! THAT takes some getting used to o_O

Again, my apologies for potentially derailing.

[System_1]

Noticed there isn’t a strat for Chun, so here goes.

Your main strength against Chun is her lack of solid AA and lack of reversals. You can jump/Demon Flip in for free most of the time, so long as you don’t get too predictable, as she still has neutral j.HK going for her. If she has Ultra, do NOT throw fireballs, especially FP Shakus. Watch for overuse of her sweep and Hasan Shu overhead, fish for FA crumples and punish. She has no high priority reverals, so your Oki game off knockdown is a nightmare for her. Keeping pressure on her is usually fairly safe since her only high priority special requires her to burn a stock. When zoning, be careful with your pokes, as her sweep is fast as fuck and will ruin your day. Also, she’s got fantastic tick throws. Look out for her forward MK, and be ready to tech.

-Don’t throw projectiles when she has Ultra
-Abuse her lack of reversals and keep the pressure on
-Fish for FA counters off her sweep and Hasan Shu
-Don’t spam st.HK, second hit will whiff if she’s crouching, and you’ll eat a sweep or cr.MK xx Super.

[rugi]

Noticed there isn’t a strat for Chun, so here goes.

Your main strength against Chun is her lack of solid AA and lack of reversals. You can jump/Demon Flip in for free most of the time, so long as you don’t get too predictable, as she still has neutral j.HK going for

so false. there’s EX-spinning bird whenever she has meter, and she can easily snipe you out of the air with air throw/jump fierce-fierce/jump forward/etc, not to mention the standing forward and fierce she has on the ground. She may not be able to threaten you with a DP from the ground, but she can pretty much meet you in the air on reaction and impose her will in the air. I have some videos to prove this:
[media=youtube]2rIeujxAoKU&feature=channel_page[/media]
[media=youtube]3nc2N5ag_CI&feature=channel_page[/media]
[media=youtube]B_EkXX0BkcQ&feature=channel_page[/media]

[samma]

Akuma can just zone her until she’s damaged enough to have ultra, then just limit fireballs to when she’s moving forward. Jump back air hado is safe from full screen, as long as you’re not cornered, I think. Cr. forward stuffs her st. strong. Focus her pokes or sweep her, and go to town on her on knockdown. Aim for the vag on wake-up with your dive kick, and you should stuff her ex sbk.

[rugi]

Aim for the vag on wake-up with your dive kick

This has real-life applications

[System_1]

Aim for the vag on wake-up with your dive kick, and you should stuff her ex sbk.

hahaha…luvs it.

[System_1]

great thread, really helpful against my friend who’s beasatly with ken,time to playtest!

btw devilknight, nice response to gamogo’s question, you even helped me out on a few questions i was going to ask anyway

strikes dan’s thumbs up pose

[rugi]

What are akumas best ways to alleviate dive kick pressure? When I try to buffer a uppercut or teleport I often get thrown out of it, or eat a follow up dive kick.

[MuKen]

What are akumas best ways to alleviate dive kick pressure?

Same answer for almost any pressure: teleport.

When I try to buffer a uppercut or teleport I often get thrown out of it, or eat a follow up dive kick.

If you’re getting thrown out of your teleport, you’re doing it late.

[System_1]

I am having trouble with El Fuerte, I’ve had some luck with focusing his attacks, and teleporting out of his cross-ups, but if he has any skill at all I seem to get pwned. Anybody with some tips?

Also, sorry if this has been answered before…how (besides demons) do you punish a blocked Blanka ball?

[otori]

I don’t thing Elf’s match-up is hard… He takes damage like a girl (like you do) and his main way of dishing damage is completely nulliefied by teleport. Just mind your spacing (no fooling at ultra range) and roundhouse is your best friend. If he wall jumps, shoryu.

As for Blanka balls, shotos don’t have any response to it. You have to live with blocking it. Your best bet is just countering then. I’ve given up trying to shoryu then on reaction so I just use normals to beat it. Beat it about 3 times and the blanka will stop tossing it around. Best normals for this I find s.hp (highest damage, really easy to counter the ball from far) and c.mp.

[vertoxz]

The more I use it, the more I love it.
St. HP is fucking awesome, it stays out there for a long time so it has some decent priority and can stuff a lot of stuff…
Same goes for st. MK.

[otori]

Yeah. I love stuffing those f.mk Ken shennanigans.

[System_1]

Won’t bother quoting it because it’s a waste of room when its just a page up press away, but thanks Gamoggo & DevilKnight, great insight into how I can adjust my play as a new player, and a even newer Akuma player.

Thankoo

[System_1]

still cant get the hang of the raging demon!! but with practice i will!!
thanks for the 101

[System_1]

If your playing on a Arcade stick dude, it’s pretty easy if you use the two Bumper buttons.

I realize your on a PS3 so the buttons may be differently labeled, I’ve no idea but on my te stick for 360 I use, LB LB < RB LB, slap it in quickly and wa-heeeey! I spent 30 mins just spamming it in training mode, trying different ways to mix it up like focus>ultra as many people here already know how to do, so I wont’ regurgitate info already stated but getting back to my point.

Until you get the swing of it just after and before games “phantom”- practice the inputs, I do it all the time and im sure a lot of other players do, helps get the co-ordination down to do it without any thought.

I hope that was of some help mate.

D

[Poe22222]

Dictator tips

Ok, so I got a little burned out on SF4 in June but having a blast at EVO and some big gains in playing ability have motivated me to rededicate myself and I want to start contributing to this board on a regular basis. The character I play against the most is dictator because one of my main online sparring partners (smirk79 on PSN) plays him. I used to hate fighting dic but now I am extremely comfortable with it and almost always beat dictators so I feel this is a great place for me to start.

Dic vs Akuma is a beautiful fight with a huge emphasis on spacing and mindgames (not that all matchups don’t emphasize them heh). Dic is so mobile and has amazing normals, but Akuma can move, too, and can punish so well that almost nothing dic does is without risk, and even more importantly, once Akuma gets a knockdown, dic is in trouble, especially if he has no EX meter.

Many dictators start the fight by spamming DR to build meter and intimidate with the threat of a headstomp, and for good reason because Akuma can’t afford to be hit by the high damage EX stomp. A huge part of the fight is knowing how to recognize and react to the stomp so as not to be hit by it or paralyzed by the fear of it. Obvious jump-ins and obvious/spamming fireballs are BIG no-nos. However, once you know what to do, dic will be scared to stomp. I am almost always moving against dic. If he does a DR/stomp, keep walking in whichever direction you were going until you know which move he did. If it’s a DR and he goes for you, SRK or focus for a huge combo (but watch out for the rarely used EX DR, which hits twice). You can also ultra through the DR hand if he gets close enough. If he DRs away from you, which is most likely, use that time to close distance if you want to. If it’s a headstomp, he should land right by you for a combo but if you can’t react in time to combo, throwing is a must to get a crucial knockdown. Punish a headstomp, and if he is spamming DR, you can hit him with an air fireball or psychic air tatsu or two will often take a dic player right out of his game. It is actually possible to demon stomp and even ex stomp on reaction. It’s very tough but it can be done. It is easiest as a reversal at the end of a round when he is trying to chip you to death as you wake up.

Dic’s main combo is cr lk x n into scissors. Be careful trying to mash something out when he is spamming lk - he can punish so easily with scissors.

It is as mid range that I feel dic has an advantage. His roundhouse is ridiculous and i don’t play a lot of footsies with dic due to that and scissors. Fireballs are very unsafe due to headstomp and ex scissors which goes through fireballs. His slide is always a threat but it’s easily punished including with an ultra when blocked, although be aware of how deep the block is. if he likes to slide when you throw air fbs, jump back sans fb and punish. Neutral jumping can work well if your opponent likes to scissor as you can come down into a big combo. FA is no good because scissors hits twice.Note that only lk scissors is safe for him on block. Generally, though, I like to stay farther away until I get a knockdown or decide to apply serious pressure. If you teleport away, there’s a good chance he will slide to close the distance without losing charge, so i will throw out some red fireballs, but don’t let him catch on to avoid EX stomp.

Dic’s cross up is really nasty and works from a very long range. Learning the spacing is crucial. The other air attack to watch out for is the 2xmp, which is dic’s only ultra setup. Look for it when he has meter and it’s an easy demon for you when you see it.

Once dic is knocked down, air fireballs are great. He migh burn ex bar to go through them, but that can be punished. Cross-ups work well, too. If he teleports a lot, try to predict it for a combo or ultra.

Bison’s best tool by far against AK IMO is a corner trap. His slide, scissor kicks, quick walking speed, and ability to chip like crazy make it tough to escape without taking damage. Stay aware of the corner and you should be able to avoid it most of the time, but if you find yourself trapped just stay calm and avoid getting ex headstomped at all cost. Patient Bisons are really tough here but if you play it right, your opponent should be so excited to have you locked down finally that he will be too aggressive and allow you to teleport or air tatsu out of there.

There are more details, but these are the matchup specific things I can think of right now.

In summary:
-avoid playing footsies
-don’t throw out obvious fireballs or jumps
-stay out of the corner
-shut down his dr/stomp game
-go for throws and other knockdowns and keep the pressure on with air fb and cross ups
-be very aware of his meter
-many ways to land ultra (blocked slide, missed air mps, close DR, teleport recovery)

[DevilKnight]

Thanks a lot to Poe for the insight on the Bison match. Hopefully that’ll go into the database to help us out with the match.

I’m going to take some quotes out of the Akuma vs Ryu thread to contribute to the match-up information on the character here, as I feel there were valuable points that shouldn’t be left to disappear in an expired thread when this one hasn’t covered the same information.

For me, it’s Akuma’s most difficult match-up. I’m going to be selective, forgive my potential bias:

Akuma ties with Sagat because of the life and damage that Sagat has, and Ryu doesn’t have those weaknesses that Akuma likes to exploit against Sagat.

I rarely find myself having time to control the match because of the number of big damage threats I have to constantly look out for.

Making the match appear lop-sided isn’t what I’m trying to do here, but if the match really is even, I’m still convinced it’s easier for Ryu to win.

Akuma can’t eat as many fireballs attempting to read Ryu as Ryu can to read Akuma.

EX Demon Flips and Red Fireballs only beat the careless fireballs, they don’t ‘fuck him up’ or anything… and when their damage output in figures is evened out, it sucks more that only Akuma has weak life.

The best damage I see Akuma doing is from cr mk xx hadoken fadc > bnb from a completely safe perspective.

Footsies is indeed the name of the game here, and it can result in big damage, it’s not just some losing numbers game where you make small gains but then lose it all the first time you make a mistake.

The match up comes down to a case of Akuma needing to really control Ryu’s movement using the triangular threat of air FB.

I don’t know…maybe it’s my poor skill, but Ryus really seem to dictate the rythm of this match. Between the c.mk > hadou crap, sweep after air fb, tick throws and the constant fear (in my case) of jumping or flipping in or even throw mid screen hadous I’m really lost.

It seems like mid-range pushing Akuma toward the corner is Ryu’s best bet. Ryu kind of needs to be moving forward or standing still, which can be used against him. If he backs out of mid-range, he gives Akuma the option of safely jumping forward with ex/fp fireballs.

In this matchup you want to stay at the range just outside of the max range of your sweep. Dodge and bait; get him to whiff something so you can sweep him and start wakeups. Or neutral jump and use a MP fireball on the way down to add pressure. If he tries to move in while you’re up, do an EX fireball instead; if it catches him, go for a roundhouse combo. Play the same move/poke/fireball/AA/anti-fireball zoning game he’s doing. Except you have extra tools.

Close range against ryu is more of a losing game. He has his confirm Shoryu - Ultras to wreak havoc with your offense.

Playing a zoning/footsies game, the ease of comboing to Ultra for him is not as big an advantage. You’re not pressuring him so he’s not going to reverse anything. He could psychic a dp, but it’s not going to be safe because he can’t FADC if it whiffs. So in terms of bringing ultras into play, you are at the advantage at this range.

What Muken said about Akuma being able to cancel into Ultra from cHK, cMK, etc comes into play huge here. When Akuma has Ultra he gets an advantage in the footsies game because he can focus Ryu’s sweeps while Ryu can’t focus his. Akuma walks faster than Ryu, which is another advantage in footsies.

Don’t forget to punish poorly spaced blocked cr.MK xx Fireball spam from Ryu players by Focus Absorbing the fireball after blocking the MK if done from max range. Ryu players love to spam that for chip damage.

Ryu holding onto his Super can mess up a load of Akuma’s tools. He can go through fireballs at full screen on reaction, air fireballs are screwed, no focus, no sweep, no Teleport; and with the stupid range on his j.HK and cr.MK he can do those into Super as a far-out punish on fireballs for half your life. He can do the smallest, quickest, lowest jump arch and still hit with the tip of his toes, where you can think you’re safe.

If anyone with good EXs holds onto their Super it’s Ryu. Players then use the next thing that they need in the match. Ryu can take control of that ranged game while the Super is stored. If Akuma makes one of those mistakes that allows the Super to hit, off it goes. If he doesn’t, Ryu can use the threat of the Super to more easily set up opportunities for his EXs to land or work.

With a Super charged it’s easy to punish you warping to escape his wake strats and he can even do this with a measured Ultra or Tatsu.

In the case of Ryu’s Super vs. Teleport, he doesn’t have to sacrifice much in terms of his usual waking options. He can say jump-in for an obvious or ambiguous cross up and chuck a Super once he lands, with auto correct sorting that out to catch you warping away in either direction. That’s a really simple and effective bait and doesn’t require an extended effort or compromise.

In the case of the stricter teleport catches, then he does need a large sacrifice of his usual offense in order to option select for them specificly. That said, if the next warp is obvious he can still react to that with the Ultra and get you all the same.

Super is a problem, no denying that. You just have to accept that once he has full meter, he is more likely to land it at some point than not. Don’t be letting him get excessive meter for free, he should be working for it.

A large part of sweep’s utility is reactive anyway, it’s not “no sweep”.

Saying he’s got an easier time execution wise is fair. But if you master your tools, in terms of the gameplan, I think it’s close, and a touch in Gouki’s favor.

To explain more fully, most of the time I try to stay at gouki-range (outside tip of sweep range to maximum range at which your opp cannot jump fbs on reaction). Playing this range you have to have willpower and avoid the temptation to “toss stuff out there”. Instead, I focus on holding that range, and catching him if he mistakenly jumps thinking I was going to fb, or sweep if he tries to walk in. Rather than tossing out moves, I more often toss out “whiff readiness” mode. Meaning I occasionally maneuver to the edge of his range then sit still for a split sec and wait for him to poke. If he misses I sweep him. This kind of “attack” is invisible and difficult for your opp to see you are doing it. Sometimes instead I will move into contact range and sweep at max range, hoping instead to interrupt him/stop him from moving/catch a focus/etc.

Use of the double roundhouse:

In this particular match, I primarily use it in hitconfirm situations (neutral air fb), I don’t generally poke with it. As you said yourself, it’s a high risk move. If I do throw it out, I often intentionally whiff the first kick. The second kick alone can’t be crouched, and the intention is that maybe my opponent was waiting for a whiff to punish. When looking for whiffs, it is awfully difficult to differentiate what attacks are being done, so it’s easy to see the first kick whiff, then try to sweep and eat the second kick into combo.

This dynamic causes my opp to slow down and stop at that range. Once that happens, I might poke with fb or ex fb instead, playing the jump/fb/AA game. In addition to that, I have access to the powerful Gouki neutral jump. I can do this if I think he’ll stand still for a bit, or to get over a fb. If I neutral jump, I EX fb if I see him start moving in late, or I MP fb on the way down otherwise. If he has a super, I can still empty jump to mess with him. An empty neutral jump at that range is fairly safe unless he was already moving in when you went up (meaning he ends up under you to srk). So as long as you are not predictable with when you jump, you will be ok. He can chip you with a fb on landing, which isn’t great for you, but otoh the fact that he has full meter means he is not getting as much from the chip game. Half the benefit of a chip is the meter gain, which he’s no longer getting. And the longer he sits on his super, the longer he’s losing efficiency by not taking advantage of meter gaining games.

I think most of you having trouble with Ryu are playing primarily online? This whole matchup changes in such situations, because so much of Gouki’s strength is reactive. I cannot employ most of these strategies online.

[DevilKnight]

To help clarify some of that information a bit further, the following video is a really good example for using the Ultra buffer trick in the sweep to crush the opponents focuses:

[media=youtube]W3cb52TkHhA&fmt=22[/media]

[deadleg]

To help clarify some of that information a bit further, the following video is a really good example for using the Ultra buffer trick in the sweep to crush the opponents focuses:

[media=youtube]W3cb52TkHhA&fmt=22[/media]

thats an amazing akuma