"Never trust a big butt and smile." Poison Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
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Hi All, I am new to the forums. I just couldn’t resist giving some of my comments - Utlra hyped that Poison has finally made it into USF4.

I played Poison quite a lot in SFxT and I think she is a great character overall. Being considered such a low tier character. I would like some changes to her in the SF4 engine though: -

My experience with Poison is that she does well when she is pressuring her opponent (the “Poison Pressue” :slight_smile: ) however she struggles to break through an opponents defense, so I hope they give her something to remedy this - perhaps making LMT an overhead, as already suggested, would alleviate some of these problems, alternatively make her current overhead (the elbow drop) recover a little faster - there was almost no reason to use it unless you were desperate to break through your opponents defense (80% of the time it left your opponent in a better position??). or give her a few more mix-up options (I think her focus attack, if handled correctly would help with this too). She should be really good with frame traps, or trapping her opponent in the corner (staying true to the fact that she herself is a “trap” LOL) - the trapping element of her gameplay should also be strengthened I think.

If they do not make her LMT an overhead, I at least hope that they allow the normal version to go over fireballs a little easier (Kinda like Chun Li’s Hazanshu). it was possible to go over fireballs in SFxT, but the timing was too strict (you literally had to execute the move the moment you hear “hadoken”) the EX version should still travel full screen and have fireball invincibility to allow her to get in and exercise that “Poison Pressure”.

I would really like her to keep her chargeable fireball (it made her game in SFxT a little more interesting) it could work similar to Gouken’s fireball as well as Viper’s feints? i.e. being able to charge the fireball or dash out of the charge to exert more pressure - allowing Poison to play mind games with her opponent? If Akuma can have a fireball that has 3 hits - why can’t Poison charge her fireball? level 1: normal fireball, level 2: fireball that hits twice, level 3: she shoots a fireball similar to her HP fireball in size (that travels full screen that is slow moving) - she can walk behind it, giving her another option to get in? the EX version would start at level 2 and end at level 4, being that it is larger fireball (due to her level 3 charge and has three hits? if anything - charging and dash cancelling out of her charge will allow Poison more mind game options. the fireball would automatically be released upon reaching level 3/ 4 depending on whether it is normal or EX, unless you have dash cancelled out if it?

Perhaps they could give her new moves: 1. being able to do LMT in the air? This could change her jump arc quite significantly? 2. a lightning legs / hundred hand slap move with her whip (cat 'o nine tails :P) - giving her new ways to chip / do damage in a combo / start a combo? (perhaps this is less likely due to her having Rekkas?). 3. They would have to give her different jump/ air animations - since all the unique characters to SFxT (like Poison, Hugo, Elena, Rolento and the tekken cast) all had the same neutral jump and backwards/ forward jump attacks whereas the SF4 cast had different moves/ animations. I hope they keep her J.HP as a diagonal jump move - give it cross up properties? allow her to cross up but land in front of her opponent for unique mixups?

I think EX WoL should have the same damage as the normal WoL - its unfair to get less RAW damage when you are using meter, despite its juggle properties. Hopefully it will retain its juggle properties so after the forth hit you can connect with standing close HP into LK LMT/ HK KBG or if you are in the corner 2x cl.MP, cl.HP into LMT/ KBG, or cr.MK into super (or an ultra in the SF4 engine).

I know I probably went a little overboard with some of my suggestions - I really would like Poison to be a solid character in USF4 and I hope Capcom takes cognisance of the fact that she was such a low tier character in SFxT and give Poison Fans something better to work with :slight_smile: I do agree that Poison is probably a little better suited to the SF4 engine than the SFxT engine though, however I also feel that she may be lacking if not improved- since the original cast seem to be getting quite a few significant buffs. So if we doing a wish list I hope some of these things could also be considered - even if they are a little over the top, which fits with Poison’s whole character LOL

Maybe Roxy will be the 5th character? :wink: since they already have a model for her :stuck_out_tongue: LOL

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Welcome to the gang. Glad to see another Poison loyalist.

Kinda :3

Though you did remind me how much I relied on throws in SFxT. Will have to change that habit for this game. And concerning her overall balancing? Well, as long as she’s not “the weaker version of Rolento” anymore, I’m happy. But yeah…top 20 would be nice. Fingers crossed.

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I appreciate the comment/enthusiasm but know that I’ve put in countless hours with the character so I think more than most people besides Fergus…I would know how she works. In SFIV she will need better and more solid tools that in SFxT because the mechanics for the games are so vastly different. I’m trying to figure out how she can take advantage of the SFIV engine while not being obnoxious about the buffs/nerfs.

Edit: Basically stuff like Making LMT air ok, would make it too good because of the amount of frame adv. you get from it…so doing a instant air one on wakeup would not only screw up the opponents timing but make for some real stupid setups not to mention if it hits you get reset situations among other things so that alone would be too significant of a change. I think a more balance change is to make it comboable from heavy buttons like with the light version(make it 2 frames faster), so that you have another option then just doing Rekka’s. This would make learning the 1 frame Link more Viable and make her combos have slightly more variation without changing the character too much. I don’t want her to be bad, I just don’t want her to be Nerfed hard in the following patch because we found something broken as hell. I want to hear more suggestions though.

Because she will lose CADC her throw game will be ass unless her normal throw range is adjusted, that and the universal tick throw nerf will hit her too. I’m hoping stuff like the frame adv. on LMT is still there so that obvious throw setup is still around because there are mindgames with that but in general she needs better buttons…the day 1 gimmicky stuff like low :mk: to LMT will get people killed in this game as FADC to Ultra exist.

There is more stuff I wanted to talk about…i’ll edit it later…

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I agree I feel like Poison would be lacking if they do not give her solid tools. However I actually liked the fact that Poison didn’t do amazing damage in SFxT - it sort of gave her a “i’m going to toy with you a little bit longer” aspect to her gameplay - so I hope they kinda keep that, but at the same time I do think she does need better tools (or setups) with which to allow her to “toy” with her opponent. Despite the differences in systems (SFxT and SF4), I just hope they retain her juggle properties from EX WoL - i loved comboing into LMT.

I think that all her moves will be focus bait, unless they give one or two armour breaking properties - rekkas could be focused, LMT could be focused (don’t know how the follow up will work?). I also don’t want LMT to be her “go to” move (i.e. have frame advantage, able to go over fireballs, be an overhead, have armour breaking properties etc.)

The air LMT could have different properties - perhaps similar to Lili’s divine step in SFxT i.e. where the recovery is really bad? perhaps just allow her to do a LMT type flip in the air which has no damage or hitbox properties? Purely just to change her jump arc?

I like the suggestion of being able to combo LMT from Heavy attacks, but this is SF4 do you really think they are going to give a character that property? I would like to be able to combo a little more into LMT, so I do hope for more options i.e. Cr.HP (anti air) into LMT should be viable option even if its not a CH.

The fact that throwing will not be as good as in SFxT is also a little bit of a worry for me, as i use to incorporate throws quite frequently in my mix-ups in order to break through an opponents defenses. Maybe her forward dash will be fast (similar to vanilla SFxT) and maybe her focus attack will be a little faster and have a bit of ranger so you can throw out a HP aeolous edge and get a full level 3 focus attack by the time the fireball is blocked… too broken? :stuck_out_tongue:

I use to main Chun Li in SSF4 and I loved the strategic element of Chun’s gameplay - its like an uphill battle and you literally have to outsmart and use every move in her repertoire. I would like a similar concept for Poison, you should be able to “toy” with your opponent, but at the same time I just want her to have the tools to toy with her opponent - perhaps a few more mixups?

Here is a video I recorded in vanilla SFxT - Poison was actually able to combo into cl.HP or cl.HK from a LMT? The second combo was messed up, I didn’t realise when I recorded, so please excuse that one. I took the video to show a friend a few gimmicks with Poison, so its nothing earth shattering LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajn--8goID0&feature=youtu.be

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I think Poison will be fine in SF4 even if they take most of her data at face value. All she needs is a throw range that’s above 0.87 (IMO I think 0.91 is perfect) and she’s good. The main thing that sucked about Poison in SFxT is the meter debuff for Aeolus Edge. It was already kinda meh to use outside of meaty in corner but now it’s going to work great. Her overhead damage will be worth it instead of a minuscule 70 on around 2000 health and potentially recoverable at that. Now it’s gonna be 70 out of 1000 and not recoverable. Even if she hit’s her SFxT damage she nets 246 for cr.lp cr lp cr.mk into rekkas even if you change cr.lp into 20 damage that’s 226. That’s above my current rose hitconfirm damage damage for way less effort and no 1F links or EX requirement… I do kinda agree her EX WoL should be changed though. If it isn’t then you could still get resets off of it or maybe LMT will have pursuit property. In fact I’d love if it did less damage but you can reset the opponent into meaty HP fireball.

I don’t mind EX LMT being an overhead but from my SFxT perspective having a comboable overhead airborne frame 1… just seems a bit to much. EX sure, but otherwise I feel that’s far too strong. Especially since realistically speaking out of her current moveset LMT is the most sensible option for armor break. So she’d be worse that Adon in that regard.

I also disagree with the chargeable fireball that’d just be kinda silly. I’d much rather more meter on activation (Like 20-30) instead of chargeable but gives 10 on activation. Plus it’s just weird assuming poison keeps EX LMT projectile invincible, has her backflip, her own projectile that is pretty darn fast you’d have one of the most annoying/best zoners in the game…

And dashing out of fireball…Nah dude that is definitely unnecessary. The only reason it was prominent in xT was because throw ranges were extremely small if they give her a Ryu range or more (0.90 or more) then she wouldn’t need it. OMG and she might actually have Kara grabs that in itself is more than enough. OR even better they might give her Rose grab range and she still might have kara grabs…

Also keep in mind Poison was really sub par in SFxT because of characters like Alisa who have projectiles but hit like a ton of bricks. Raven same reason and Rolento who had a faster Far.Hp with more range. Or Chun who just played Poison’s game better. And they all built meter faster than poison. She had low damage and with her projectile meter game and her dash weakened she really took a large hit to her game and other characters just simply did her role better. And then the rush down in that game was relentless. At least in SF4 she could set the pace in matches far better and with the absence of rolls her oki is vastly superior.

Only changes I think she needs is a cr.LK that has a 4 frame start up or if it stays 5 frame startup then it should be at least +5 on hit and maybe put her forward dash back to 14 instead of 16. Or just better links in general. But then again Juri players don’t have many links and her dash is 17f they amaze me with what they can do.

TL;DR: I’m almost certain if she’s is take from SFxT with no changes (besides the obvious system juggle mechanics) then she will still end up one of the best zoners if not the zoners in the game…

Edit: Also there is no way on Earth her throw game will be worse. Because they will absolutely not keep the SFxT throw range. It was like 0.3 in that game. It was really terrible. Even if they put it at 0.6 it will still be 2x better than the throw range in SFxT. And most zoning characters have throw ranges around 0.8-1.0 so I think it’s safe to assume she will be around there.

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^ EX LMT was still not that great of a move…it was the same speed at the :mk: and :hk: versions on startup, only the :lk: ver. was 2 frames faster and all of them are seeable and your able to react to them(jab, stand guard, DP, ect.) It really wasn’t that good…it was like…her best EX outside of raw damage because it was a raw tag punisher among other things.

Also her overhead was ass…it’s negative on hit…even after patch it was still not that great, now if you could actually combo after it with her cl./far stand jab then It would be better because people would actually fear being hit overhead then go “meh” it’s 70 damage…I can just Focus this and get out of trouble. Something that I think Poison will have a problem with in the SFIV engine.

@eccomancer, Nice vid, it pretty much shows all her basic stuff I kinda went over in her thread here(you need to add those derpy links though cl. :mk: is underused…) hehe.

But ya~ air LMT isn’t a bad idea, I was just saying how it could be broken. The hit properties would have to be different for sure and how fast it actually comes out would also be changed. I think in all fairness if it did a hard knockdown on normal hit but on counter hit it did a juggle(think Bison’s Hell Attack) It would create some crazy juggle opportunities and potential Ultra setups would be nice…but to keep it fair the air ver. isn’t a overhead and is punishable on block.(-3 or -4).

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That was the point. It was so terrible, nobody expected it (= crouch teched). I spammed that shit all day everyday ;D

Of course, that’s a lazy man’s excuse, but it was fun.

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But I’m pretty sure unless they add a new move LMT will be her armor break.
As their choices right now are (expecting they use everything at face value btw which I doubt they will but just as reference)

WoL: Silly 13 startup -3 with a lot of range and rekkas?
Aeolus: A projectile armor break? Good Lord.
KBG: Reversal DPs get armor break anyways so it would just be redundant.
LMT: Slow move. Hops likes and makes the opponent think twice about crouch teching.
Backflip: Lol that would be funny

It just seems to fit the bill at least unless they add another move. And it seems crazy to have LMT be an overhead… Air LMT would be so annoying and dumb. Especially if it has worse recovery she can focus in SF4 and she can backflip fast projectiles like HP sonic boom. She doesn’t need anything else. And she certainly doesn’t need CADC she can FADC in this…
And I doubt LMT will have no way to combo except out of counter hits maybe that would be so freaking weird to have Ibuki who can’t combo into hard knockdown off of her command slide anymore but Poison can?

I do agree that she needs more air normals though. I’m hoping they add some but even if they don’t I’m pretty sure as long as they make the hitboxes good on her AA I’ll play her like a better Rose.

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Yes EX LMT wasn’t good in SFxT<---- This is SF4 and as a fireball punish it would be down right silly. Take Ryu Hadouken for example. In SFxT it had 33 frames of recovery. In SF4 it’s 45. His SFxT data is around the same as SF4 Guile. =|

Just think about it within the context of SF4. It would be horrible to have this move which is likely to be her armor break that hops lows be an overhead non EX ESPECIALLY if they are comboable and + on block… It’s the same reason air tatsu was changed and Adon’s Jaguar kicks work in the same manner.
Also once again taking info from SFxT as is (I know they will change at some point) who will want to throw out fireballs if LMT keeps it’s followup that is 200 damage for throwing a supposedly safe fireball. Full screen SPD into hard knockdown and no rolls.

F+MP wasn’t really even negative on hit… Because if it hit they were crouching so it’s 0 it was -1 on standing it. You could even link off of CH f+mp depending on how late it hits. And in SFxT you only got +2 extra frames from CH in sf4 Medium attacks (including overheads) gain 3 frames of hitstun… Dude I rarely see Viper eat a focus from her overhead which is very similar in animation and utility. Why would someone focus it with the potential of grab…? Hell the recovery wasn’t even bad if you hear the focus sound DP. She even has a multihitting DP that will probably be FADCable and she can backdash right into her projectile game…

She also has a fireball that sits right in front of her. When is someone going to try and focus that? xD
If her recovery ends up being less that 47 after they finalize her she is going to be annoying (although going by sfxt maybe her MP will have less than 47 and HP&EX will be the only ones if any that have less that 45.

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I wasn’t talking fireball game, thats too obvious…of course it’s good as a fireball punish and honestly the only good thing about that move, what is your point? If she has meter(4 EX’s in SFIV) she will be able to punk Ryu from chucking plasma? It’s really not that bad. I was talking about it being used as a pressure tool(i.e. why it was a gimmick in SFxT), because you can visually react to it and either block it or punish it.

Your also assuming that the move is a armor breaker, yeah it would seem OP as a move that is a comboable overhead that has frame adv. and is a non-EX move but realizing how slow this move is and how punishable it is to someone with reactions, it honestly doesn’t matter how good it is if you can’t ever land it. Which is why most people stopped using the move outside of punishing fireballs with the EX ver. in SFxT.

Her overhead was pretty bad dude, it’s hardly used for a reason and sure if you get a CH on most bodies, you can land a awkward 1 framer, Yay…meanwhile Guy can combo his overhead on normal hit with better knockdown options on every character…the Justice I tell you.

Her :hp: fireball is “only” good when done meaty so what is your point? I can’t focus it? why would I try to?..that is the real question.

Edit: Theory Fighter and Speculation gives me headaches so im done with this…Comic-Con give us a Trailer…

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Might play poison if I like her play style.

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Well my last input then.

They wouldn’t try to randomly focus HP fireball. They’d to react to her other stuff in the corner and if they try to focus dash they get hit by HP fireball. She will definitely have a better throw range so your tick throws from HP fireball will be better and whiff HP fireball into grab comes into play. Take Akuma whiff cross up fireball grab tactics as an example. When they are looking for blockstun to confirm their options and you grab them when they are looking for HP aeolus edge to connect it makes a really strong tactic. And her overhead wasn’t great in the context of SFxT but I’m pretty sure it’d be better suited to SF4 and it’s airborne.

Maybe I’m too used to Rose where her soul reflect is useless in a lot of matchups and she doesn’t have an overhead, so it’s mostly spacing and tick throws. But honestly Poison is a zoner she shouldn’t have amazing rush down options she should have strong fireballs and normals that compliment that. But ultimately it’s up to Capcom. I just hope that they make both Ultras qcfx2 PPP because I’m sick of conflicting inputs and shortcuts screwing me with Rose…

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idk who to play un USF4 D: i still play poison from time to time in sfxt… but maybe this time i can stick with her competatively if she isnt low tier…

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I maybe played Poison differently than the conventional way then - I found her pressue or rush down game far superior to her zoning game. I think her zoning game, at least in SFxT was pretty average. The fact that she could CADC her fireball made it a little better IMO. I also use to play Rose in SSF4, I do not know why people make the comparison with Poison and Rose - their zoning games are very different, at least in my view. Rose has a full screen fireball. for a fireball it is quite long in its size. And yes Rose’s recovery on all versions of her fireball is quite bad, but from full screen Rose can fire off a LP fireball (dash behind) and if they try jump over it she can soul throw, if they focus attack it she can soul spiral or even standing HK if out of reach. Rose may not have an overhead, but she can chip away at you from a safe distance and has a decent rush down game on top of it (cr.MP is godlike and then soul spiral???). Rose has a slide allowing her to get in, move under diagnol jumps and it sets up her throws very nicely. Soul Satellite also gives Rose a range of defensive and offensive options.

I do not consider Poison a very good zoner actually - in SF4 she may be better. Her overhead was quite bad in SFxT, even if it hit a crouching opponent they could literally throw Poison when she lands from the elbow drop - its airborne but unlike Viper’s overhead I think it cannot go over fireballs? I stand to be corrected. Viper lifts her whole body up in her overhead animations, the overhead comes out a lot faster whereas Poison’s you can see it coming from a mile away. If they made Poison’s overhead similar to Viper’s in SF4 I would be quite happy with that change. As it stands in SFxT I personally think its a rather useless overhead.

I do not mind if they decrease the damage on some of her moves, provided they give them more utility and versatility. As mentioned previously the EX LMT does 200 damage with its follow up and the normal does 150 - decrease the damage but give it more versatility (i’d really like the normal version to go over fireballs easier similar to Hazanshu -remember it is possible to go over fireballs with the normal version, timing is just super strict in SFxT - perhaps since the SF4 engine is a little slower in comparison it would be easier?). Maybe give Poison the option to “fake” a rekka (by pressing a kick instead of a punch button during the rekka follow ups) to allow her to go in for a throw or something? Poison should be a versatile character (considering her character design :P) so I think I would really like to see a lot of 5 - 5 match ups with Poison.

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I actually agree with you eccomancer on her playstyle…and I don’t understand the comparison to Rose…like seriously…I don’t and most likely never will. Anyways I’m hoping Capcom releases a Trailer for each new character so we can see how they play in SFIV and we can have more solid assumptions on how she is to be played.

Poison needs better links…preferably into her heavy buttons for stun, like into sweep and cr. :hp: from cr. :mp: (buff this useless piece of shit normal)

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I believe, if properly implemented and adjusted, Poison has a good shot at being a solid character in USF4. Based upon playing SFxT i can see folling strenghts:

  • Far reaching pokes/normals
  • Rekka-ish pokes
  • basic Fireball zoning
  • SRK-ish anti air and reversal
  • Vega-ish backflip

If this will be coupled with above standard walkspeed, standard hit confirm timings, viable/comboable Ultras and embarassing taunts, I see potential.

Donwside will surely be 900 health and stun (maybe not, she’s a guy) and a big question mark on overhead and knockdown mix ups…

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Because people think that Rose is focus bait (Same thing you guys are saying), but with her tools she can get around it easily… And Rose has a fireball, solid walk speed, both are considered middle tier, and she is the closest character to Poison’s current tool set (long reach and projectiles). But beyond that the similarities end. It’s not like I’m saying they play exactly the same; I just think they are two characters with very few gimmicks and need to be played solidly. Also I’m using her as a comparison as she is the character I’ve put the most time with.

Rose’s fireball hitbox is quite small and the recovery is so bad if someone jumps in and you dash you eat a full punish unless you FADC or FADC ultra dude. And Soul throw is so bad it catches empty jumps nicely but anything else it straight up loses to.

And I’m pretty sure you played Poison how she was meant be played in SFxT because the nerf to her zoning game it was hard to use her in any other way she built little to no meter and did very little damage in SFxT while zoning, additionally you had ample ways to get around fireballs in SFxT that lead to full 300-400+ damage combos so the risk reward of 50-70 damage is heavy leaning towards your opponent if they have such a character. So you had to rush down. But in terms of SF4 she would be insane. I mean the screen draw distance in SF4 is smaller. And in the context of SF4 her normals in general would be really great.

Viper’s overhead in SF4 is 20 frame start up airborne frame 6 Poison’s is 21 airborne 9 I don’t think there’s that much of a difference. It helps if a person sticks out sticks out a random normal, but of done when they aren’t expecting to get hit it becomes an offensive boon. Also the reason why Viper’s overhead is effective in SF4 is because of her feints make the threat of grabs and counters hits really strong and she is visually confusing at times.

I get that coming from SFxT it’s hard to imagine her tools being good (was so refreshing when I came back to SF4 and played Sakura, Koto and Rose again), but it’s an entirely different engine things that were weak there could be potentially strong in SF4 (take jump back akuma fireball in SFxT and sakura f+mk for example). Therook even complained that CH overhead followup was a crappy 1 frame link. But in SF4 it would be a 2 frame link and there are only a few characters that can combo off of an overhead if they left it alone. I agree in the context of SFxT her tools were pretty bad overall some her normals like far mk, far hk and cr.mp made no sense in 2013. But in SF4 imagine all her tools minus juggles and terribad throw range. You can’t even kara throw in that game, but in SF4 you can and that alone could make a huge difference depending on how they treat her F.HP.

She doesn’t even need Rekka feints. You have FADC. And even worse that would be basically a vortex. Whip follow up P P P knockdown. Whip followup P P K (Throw knockdown) P delay K P delay K it’d be so ridiculous. :expressionless:

“I do not consider Poison a very good zoner actually - in SF4 she may will be better.” <— this is my point. In SF4 she’ll be great even if taken at face value purely because of system mechanics in this (FADC, focus absorb, smaller stage draw distance/ screen size, and Ultras, no recoverable health). But obviously they won’t keep her exactly the same but I doubt she’ll be butchered. She’ll have actual pressure and comeback potential from Ultras. And you can react to projectiles with ease. Since the recovery is longer in this.

Edit:
TL;DR I think you guys aren’t taking the SF4 engine into consideration when it comes to suggestions.

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I’m playing my old xT mains Rolento and Poison =D. Oh and my SF4 mains can’t drop koto or Rose…ever I’ve gone through too much with them lol

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I think Poison will be amazing in USF4. Can’t wait to use her (probably as a secondary character). My main is Rose atm and I also played Chun for a while and I compare Poison to Rose as well. I think she could be a very decent defensive character.

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I think a good c.MK with safe rekka confirms could take her a long way in the SF4 engine. I could see her LMT being a focus breaker also. Meaty fireball oki will be great for her and the greater throw range in sf4 will help her. Maybe some viability of LMT being a good crouch tech punish? Might be too slow though. If her DP actually works as an anti air in sf4 or has a reliable AA normal, i can’t see her being a bad character from a design standpoint.