"Nem-Assists": The Nemesis Teambuilding/Assists Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
461

As a Tron main, I’d like to clear up some misconceptions that I see here about her.

What’s her problem with HSD? I don’t see any. Damage scaling? Drills scale damage, yeah, but they also build a lot of bar in return.

Tron has to be played on point and depends on assists to set up her supers, but she’s actually not stingy about what assists you use to land her supers with. Some assists won’t let you land King Servbot, for example, but they’ll let you land Lunchtime and when you’re a character down, that’s good to keep in mind.

Meter? You should be building upwards of a bar if you land a hit. Also take into consideration ABEGEN’s DHC tech with Thor and other possibilities.

Damage? I think this is the point I find the most baffling. I’m pretty sure Tron can do more damage than Nemesis with both assists and only one super. You guys presumably know more about Nemesis than I and I’m aware of some of his resets, which potentially makes his damage limitless, but as far as absolutely guaranteed damage, I feel relatively secure in thinking Tron’s got him beat. Opening up an opponent up to allow for such an opportunity is another matter completely.

I’ll use my Tron team with Nemesis(Rocket Launcher) and Jill(Arrow Kick/wall bounce) as an example and my BnB off of a j. S with said team.
J. S, s. HS, airMMH, air H drill before hitting the ground, s.S, airMMHS, s. d.H, Jill, L beacon bomb, King Servbot, s. H, Nemesis, L beacon bomb, j. H H drill
Sorry for the mangled notation, but it’s hard to get some of it across in a more refined fashion, especially the relaunch part. Depending on how you mash, you can get 910,000 out of it. It’s pretty hard to get anything under 860,000, meaning dead Magneto and everybody down. Before the super, you end up with a little bit above a bar. After the drill at the end, you end up with around 75% - 80% of a bar. This combo is also corner to corner so you don’t have to worry about where on screen you start it from. If you’re close to the corner, you can omit the drill before to relaunch completely.

Her assists are bad and that’s just another reason why you play her on point. There’s really no reason to use Gustaff Fire anymore and her drill assist is absolutely useless from my testing. I feel Bandit Boulder is THE assist for her now. You can use it for combo extension for Frank, Haggar, Wesker, and probably others. You could maybe use it as a ghetto lockdown assist and you can definitely use it as a ghetto projectile. You could also potentially use it for wacky resets with how HSD works with it.

I don’t think Tron is anywhere near the worst character in the game. She has problems, sure, but if she gets a hit, your character is probably gonna be dead. I was actually thinking recently that Tron is better than Nemesis. His command grab is definitely better since it leads to more damage anywhere on screen, but I’m pretty sure hers has faster startup(I don’t have the guide so…) despite not being able to do anything other than that if you’re not near the corner. In terms of normals, I’d probably give it to Tron other than Nem’s starfish and armor. I’d like to hear your guys’ opinion on the matter because I haven’t nearly put in as much time in researching Nemesis as Tron.

Sorry for the long post about Tron, but with all the tiers I’ve seen lately around SRK, this is as good as a spot as any to vent.

462

Yeah, my buddy just showed me some tech that he has been developing in training mode for Tron, who he also mains. My face was fixed. Anyway, this couldn’t have come at a better time, because my sparring buddy just reevaluated my opinion of Tron. Apparently, Chris G did pretty well at a tourney with a Tron team he made, and my bud stole ALL OF IT (He also uses Chris/Tron).

I still say, she’s in need of specific teams, but damn, if I could barely hit Tron in my last few matches. Anyway, I still think everyone in this game can be used as long as you know the tech, and Hsien-Ko is the only one who is outclassed in most respects by a lot of other characters.

Also, to the Tronman, My buddy showed me a few uses for the Drill Assist over the Bandit Boulder. He uses it for a weird pushing away blockstring thing with Chris, and he can also extend stuff in very odd ways with it. Not as useful overall, but hell, with this game, anything can happen.

463

you bring up alot of good points, and since you’re a current Tron user, while I was a Vanilla user (dropped her like a rock. she no longer felt fun to me TBH) I respect you comin’ in here and defendin’ her.

I respectfully disagree though. Tron might be able to get good damage with assists, but anyone can get good damage with assists. that’s how 1/2 the cast get’s their damage. From my (outdated, yes) knowledge of Tron, her assistless damage was still pretty low compared to other heavies when she lacked assists, and the only way to pump it back up was by burning alot of meter. Nemesis might not be doing Hulk level damage, but it’s actually HARD to deal below 700k with Nemesis’s BnBs, and he has some viable assistless 800k combos as well. Slap some of nemesis’s resets on that and a dead character is easy. I’ll admit that with assists, Tron has scary damage, but when left alone, or put in a situation where she can’t use her assists, Nemesis has her beat IMO.

I recall her HSD and meter gain as rather bad, but since you’re a tron main and all, I’m not surprised if I’m wrong about that, I don’t research into her as much as nemmy.

as for the straight up “who is better?”, I have got to give it to Nemesis (what’s that? me? biased? haha, yeah…). Nemesis has a great set of normals, and is much more than Starfish and armor. j.M has a hitbox that would make hulk jealous, j.H is godlike we all know this, and j.S is deceptively large, and leads into a groundbounce. s.L has great range, and s.H has armor, and a good AA angle. cr.H is great for tick throws as well as for crossing under. all his normals are safe on block or can be cancelled into clothesline which IS safe on block, or command grab if you want to lay on the pressure. and s.S has one of the largest hitboxes in the game, without having ANY hurtbox, making good spacing with that move excellent. all versions of deadly reach are great armor breaking tools, assist killers, and just some of the best pokes IN THE GAME. All of nemesis’s normals have a use, we even recently found some cool shit with j.L!

Tron has j.M, and while j,H still has a good hitbox, it’s ability to turn into a combo got turned to shit. j.S is still a great move for people pressing buttons, and I guess s.L is nice due to the multiple hits. compared to Nemesis’s normals though, she’s lacking range and fast, long pokes that convert into comboes easy as pie. I will say though, her j.M is excellent, and is one of a handful of moves in the game that I would consider on par with nemesis in regards to poking.

as for command grabs, yeah, Trons is faster (My gut instinct is 3 framer? I’m not feeling it’s a 1 frame grab. [obviously wesker needed a 1 frame command grab. he was really lacking without it ~ sarcasm]) but I dont see her command grab game comparing to other grab heavy characters like Nemesis or Haggar and Thor. The range is REALLY bad, and while she can get a combo out of it, it doesn’t end in the same reset loops nemesis can get. I am unfamiliar with any throw setups tron has (please enlighten me, I’m genuinely curious) but honestly it’s mostly the range that’s not selling it to me. Nemesis may have a slow command grab (6 frame startup I think) but it has the best range in the game, and often, that’s how he lands, because it’s range is deceptively large.

so yeah, that’s an extended version of my opinion on tron. hope I wasnt too much of a jackass.

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Oh, another case for Tron, she has Frank setups on par with Nova and Skrull, and works very well with shopping cart. I actually considered using her over Ammy for my Frank team for just that reason, but I’d rather have the ability to get Frank to level 5 off a combo if he’s snapped in or if Ammy lands a TAC, more variety, ya know? Also, ice plus Frank, just take me right now, that image is too awesome.

Tron’s fun, and has great normals and a surprisingly fast air dash, a wonky hitbox which makes combos on her different, and good normals. She is THE abuse bad matchup character, and really hard to touch, her damage is also good. She just doesn’t open up enough the way I play her. And I’m bad at making her safe, and I require both bounces on my teams, usually, and the only people she would be able to replace are of the wallbouncey variety. She’s unnoticed B+ tier in my book, but my book’s odd, I say everyone but the top 5 and Modok deserve to be B+ tier (They deserve god tier), and also Hsien-Ko (she is very very low tier. I’d love to see a Hsien-Ko player come here and disprove me, because I wanted to pick her up if she wasn’t garbage).

465

Thing about Tron is that she needs certain assists to make her super effective. And yeah, that’s not too far off from Nemesis, but Tron I feel needs more from her assists and suffers more without them. Tron’s waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better at instant overheading than Nemesis, so having something like Deadpool or Felicia is just awesome. Imagine jL + Felicia and try blocking that. Tron combo extenders are definitely on the scaling side and tend to cost a lot for good damage, but I often see her getting a lot meter for various reasons when pros use her, so there might be something there. Another nice thing about Tron is that she actually has invincible supers, even if they are sort of ass at actually BEING invincible, but they’re faster than Nemesis. And she DOES have an invincible, fast grab which is probably very useful, especially compared to our lumbering zombie friend.

But Macaratti’s right, Nemesis simply has more. His zoning and keepaway are functional to good, his normals are drastically better, his DHC into someone is almost universally synergetic, his angles are astounding, and Tron’s impressive damage depends greatly on the assist backing her up. If Tron were assistsless, what would her damage be. Nice thing about Nemesis is that A) His reset options greatly increase damage even if scaling from something like Doom Beam happens, and B) He still gets a crap ton of damage off random hits without assists backing him up. If we’re talking about 1 meter damage, and using assists, I’m pretty sure Nemesis can match Tron’s damage in the certain instances involving the corner. motion51 is often churning out new corner combos that range from 750,000 with a slam and 935,000 without, using one meter and assists, so yeah.

Also, it’s 5 frames for L command grab, 3 for M and 1 for H

466

woah, Tentacle slam H is 1 frame!? i never knew that!

but yeah, Gil’s pretty spot on.

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  1. I gotta watch motion’s videos more. Yowza.

  2. Something for Nem to be jealous of is Tron’s level 3 hyper. I wants that startup invincibility SO BAD.

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No, Tron’s is.

Nemesis is 7 for L, 20 for M/H

469

what the fuck did people on here really say that Tron does low damage?

lol she does more than Nemmy with just 1 clakeyD assist off many more hitconfirms, and an combo extender assist for throws. srsly ppl Tron is shit, but at least MAKE SURE you know what you’re on about.

and most of these are probably suboptimal.

470

ok, I see now. thought you were referring to nemesis. I knew it was too good to be true XD

aaaaaaaand there’s where I get exposed.

followed the link and took a look, and yeah, I was **wrong. **Her meter building is excellent, and her combos with an assist do some great damage. I feel like an idiot now. That’s what I get for dropping a character and continuing to think I know what I’m talking about XD. I still say her solo damage is a little gimped, but yeah, that assisted damage was legit.

my apologies for not doin’ my research folks.

471

Her solo damage IS crap, mostly because she can’t OTG into Hyper without assists and all of her grounded combo extenders add a crap ton of scaling, such as Gustaff Fire. Tron’s damage has always stemmed from her chaining of Hypers more than anything else, as while she can reach high damage without hypers, doing so is often in rare instances. Her moves more or less function like Zero or Chun-Li, the initially look like they do no damage, but after a while you notice that their minimum scaling is pretty high because of the multiple hits. So on one hand she has heavy-level damage with the likes of jH or S or whatnot, and on the other she has Bonne Strike and Gustaff Fire that don’t do much but also don’t scale too hard. The reason she’s so assist dependand is that she can’t transition from one to the other without assists or perfect setups, and lets not even forget her issues with OTGing.

472

yeah, that pretty much sums up my main issue with Tron. Her tech with assists is REALLY good, and really raises her usability, but if she’s left without an assist to use, or doesnt have any assists that have good combo synergy, then yeah, she’s rather gimped.

I will say, after watching some of those tron combo vids, her meter gain IS a fuckton better than I originally thought, so her not having meter to burn is a situation she wont have to worry about too much. it looked like most combos build at least 1 meter before the first use of a hyper.

473

Sorry to stop the low-tier discussion, but there’s something I’m curious about. I watch a ton of House of Crack, and has anyone taken a look at Bum’s alt team? He used to run Spencer, but he runs Cap(Something, he barely uses cap assist), Arthur (Daggers), Nemesis(Launcher Slam). And yeah, that’s the order. So, I was thinkin’ what?! but after watching a few matches, I see what he was going for.

So, Cap in front gets a nice amount of extension for everything he owns with that launcher slam, and the assist makes his incoming mixup game pretty intense, actually. In addition, his choice of Spencer and now Cap for lead is really specific, because they both have that hyper that goes into knockdown, which means Bum has his same Haggar THC tech for his alts. The THC is…well, I’ve never seen so much damage in a single THC in my life, as in, it did 3/4’s of Dante’s hp by itself. That is INSANE! That Nemesis boot will always connect at the end of it, with or without Arthur’s Sonic Bracelet in the mix, which means extension, reliability, and even more damage. And you never get the Nem DHC, basically, with how Bum uses his hypers. I have watched a few sets with this team, and Nemesis rarely gets left as anchor, either. He usually switches in during the death of a character, then rushes down with Arthur daggers backing him up (a lot of the time Golden, too), which is a much better position for Nem than the opening of a match. Also, his Cap assist seems to be of the least use to the team, so Cap lead makes sense, but he foregoes the DHC problem of second-spot Nem by putting him in last (Arthur also has a very fun DHC). His Cap seems recent, because it is, but his Arthur is one of the best, and his Nem, while not jaw-dropping, is solid, and reads well.

I mean, all of us are in preference of Nemesis lead, because this is the character we know best (for most of us, anyway), and the character we wanna showcase, and assist really makes Nemesis as comfortable as the higher tier characters in movement and smacking people in the face. Nemesis second has also been shown to be pretty viable by Airtola, but that requires some more specific stuff, and you can’t rely on higher-damage DHC’s and multiple assists for Nemesis, not all the time, anyway. Is it possible that we could also make some “support Nemesis” teams that manage to still keep Nem with assists? With meter-building characters and some good Team Hyper tech, it seems possible to slap Nem at the end of a very specific team, as blasphemous as that sounds. I found one amazing example, from a man who knows this game inside and out. I’mma check this shit out over the summer, see what I can see.

Can anyone think of some other good team ideas to make use of this? My first thought that comes to mind is Dormammu, who has some intense THC damage, and likes the bounce. He can also get Nemesis a nice safe tag with his big Ball of Cheese, so Nem gets stuck as anchor less, and Dorm can fill the role of anchor pretty well. BRAINSTORMING TIME!!! Oh, and Storm might like it a bit, but that I’m less certain about.

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huh, mind linkin’ to some vids of this guy? I’d love to see him in action.

as for the setup, I can see that working fine. I think the reason it works is that he’s not using Nemesis in last as “anchor nemesis”, he simply has him in back because that’s the order that gives him the most control over his team. Most players don’t call in their last character unless it’s for a DHC kill, since the last character slot has been universally deemed “anchor” by almost everyone. Rather than playing by slots, he’s playing by the entire team.

My guess is, his game plan is to keep his whole team alive and kicking, and to be as fluid as possible, so there’s no “oh fuck, there goes my point character TIME TO EAT A COMEBACK” that happens on some teams.

I can dig that

475

Bum is a freaking god despite not going to tourneys. About the Nemesis support idea, it sounds interesting. Perhaps if I start Dorm/Arthur/Nemesis, a good idea would be to do Stalking Flare, DHC into Golden Armor, and then hard-tag Nemesis in so the order becomes Nemesis/Dorm/Arthur with frame advantage and Golden Daggers.

Though the big problem is that Dorm on point can be iffy since he needs space to start and that space isn’t always available to him.

476

I tried out Wesker/Dorm/Nem very recently, and though I don’t really play Wesker, and am very meh with Dorm, the team has some very obvious perks. Launcher Slam made every combo longer, that was a fun thing, and though I was entirely improvising my combos, the assists made it easier than I thought. On incoming, I managed to do some good stuff with launcher slam and crossunders with Wesker, and Dorm could probly do more on incoming with it. Every THC, two or three person, was very damaging, and I could always combo afterwards. Oh, and I actually really enjoyed pressing Dorm’s THC button on reaction to an opponent dashing or trying to zone. It’s a funny hit confirm, in a way, not the most efficient, but if you have meter to burn, it’s awesome. I got caught with Nem anchor from time to time, but mostly I usually switched in Nem when I killed a character with Dorm, or just threw out a stalking flare and raw-tagged.

Thing is that Nem/Dorm/Wesker is quite good, as well as Dorm/Nem/Wesker. Nemesis in last could work, but I’d probly want to learn what the hell I’m doing with the other members of my team first. But the big advantage is the THC, so I need to capitalize around that, otherwise why not start Nem point. Still trying to work this out in my head.

477

there’s a video somewhere (that i can’t find) that is a few setups on incoming, Wesker teleport + Launcher Slam that iirc option selects into a throw or something like that. too bad i can’t find it =/

usually the only time i have Wesker out with Nemesis in the back is when someone tries to snap in Wesker; i just wing it on the incoming setups with Launcher Slam + a teleport and see what happens.

478

damn, pretty sure i found it in my bookmarks but the video was removed.

479

Speaking of Wesker, is it really important that Nemesis gets an OTG assist?

480

Not terribly. Nemesis is in the boat of characters who benefit from it, but it isn’t needed that much. Gunshot lets Nemesis turn random launches and hits into reset setups, but the actually combo extension is rather poor compared to others, as Nemesis’s own combo extension and extended damage scaling is so good/poor respectively.