Necalli Intermediate Thread: Ancient Aztechnology

[AudricVsFood]

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

[AudricVsFood]

I have been messing around with the Stomp (Valiant Rebellion) to better understand its properties, but still cannot QUITE understand the best times to use it. I am assuming it’s best used as a combo finisher mostly, but has anyone else had different experiences with it?

Yeah I have been messing around with it as well. What I found was that the HK-Stomp launches the opponent into the air which can then be followed up, if your timing is good enough, with either EX-Rising Light (DP) or EX-Stomp which has a longer startup but marches across the screen.

In terms of it being a combo finisher, I’m more inclined to agree with you when using the MK-Stomp but I’d also need to dedicate some more time to figuring out if they are other situations that I can use it safely. I’ve definitely found that it is unsafe to randomly throw it out unless the opponent is in sufficient blockstun.

I’m still trying to figure out how to incorporate LK-Stomp.

EX stomp can be comboed from jabs and it leaves you at +2, meaning you can continue to press buttons afterwards. In other words, if the opponent presses a button, you should always be able to counter hit them. Once they stop pressing buttons, start going in for throws and whatnot. Just continue applying pressure.

[Necrotrophic]

ex stomps should be reserved for counter pokes though, personally i cant justify spending meter if its blocked and being -2

[Muttonman]

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

Fake stomp: you cancel into a stomp which whiffs due to their recovery then throw them. It’s quite negative so it’s only when you know they’re looking to block the stomp though, but the lack of blockstun will catch players by surprise.

[Nykahrii]

lk stomp i often stick behind a cr mk or cr mp as a quick punish.

Yeah I second this after trying it a few times and switching between cr.mp or cr.mk and st.mp or st.mk, the crouch position makes it way easier to lead into the lk stomp.

[AudricVsFood]

ex stomps should be reserved for counter pokes though, personally i cant justify spending meter if its blocked and being -2

It’s called a hit confirm, and it leaves you at positive two. With the meter build rate in this game and how retarded slow and easy hit confirming is, it’s worth the meter build.

[AudricVsFood]

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

Fake stomp: you cancel into a stomp which whiffs due to their recovery then throw them. It’s quite negative so it’s only when you know they’re looking to block the stomp though, but the lack of blockstun will catch players by surprise.

Just do a regular fake meaty with normals. It’s faster.

[Muttonman]

I tend to use Necalli in a very counter-offensive way. First looking for openings in my opponent’s guard then leading with The Disc’s Guidance. Once within close-quarters I find that I have more footsie options to choose from with his decently-ranged normals. All of this is fine but I still haven’t found a way to incorporate his command grab, i.e. Mask of Tlalli, into my play-style.

To get this ball rolling I have two questions:

1. What situations have you all found in which Mask of Tlalli works well?
2. What buttons do you use to open up your opponent to be command-grabbed?

Command grabs d

ex stomps should be reserved for counter pokes though, personally i cant justify spending meter if its blocked and being -2

It’s called a hit confirm, and it leaves you at positive two. With the meter build rate in this game and how retarded slow and easy hit confirming is, it’s worth the meter build.

If you’re hit confirming you should generally go into EX Slash rather than EX Stomps

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

Fake stomp: you cancel into a stomp which whiffs due to their recovery then throw them. It’s quite negative so it’s only when you know they’re looking to block the stomp though, but the lack of blockstun will catch players by surprise.

Just do a regular fake meaty with normals. It’s faster.

People aren’t able to react to a fake meaty though, moves come out too fast. The whole point here is that when your opponent has demonstrated that they’ll react to your HK Stomp to go with a faster one so that they are going to block (again, non-dp characters only) and then throw them as you’re right on top of them.

It’s a nice little gimmick to keep in your back pocket.

[AudricVsFood]

I tend to use Necalli in a very counter-offensive way. First looking for openings in my opponent’s guard then leading with The Disc’s Guidance. Once within close-quarters I find that I have more footsie options to choose from with his decently-ranged normals. All of this is fine but I still haven’t found a way to incorporate his command grab, i.e. Mask of Tlalli, into my play-style.

To get this ball rolling I have two questions:

1. What situations have you all found in which Mask of Tlalli works well?
2. What buttons do you use to open up your opponent to be command-grabbed?

Command grabs d

ex stomps should be reserved for counter pokes though, personally i cant justify spending meter if its blocked and being -2

It’s called a hit confirm, and it leaves you at positive two. With the meter build rate in this game and how retarded slow and easy hit confirming is, it’s worth the meter build.

If you’re hit confirming you should generally go into EX Slash rather than EX Stomps

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

Fake stomp: you cancel into a stomp which whiffs due to their recovery then throw them. It’s quite negative so it’s only when you know they’re looking to block the stomp though, but the lack of blockstun will catch players by surprise.

Just do a regular fake meaty with normals. It’s faster.

People aren’t able to react to a fake meaty though, moves come out too fast. The whole point here is that when your opponent has demonstrated that they’ll react to your HK Stomp to go with a faster one so that they are going to block (again, non-dp characters only) and then throw them as you’re right on top of them.

It’s a nice little gimmick to keep in your back pocket.

If you’re hit confirming, then you generally need two hits for your brain to react to the hit confirm. But if you have the reactions off one hit, then yeah, I agree with you.

I misinterpreted what you said about the “fake stomp”. I thought the terminology suggested it be used as a fake meaty. Outside of that, fake meaties work on all levels. It’s not about the whether or not the opponent can react to it. It’s about getting your opponent uptight and the pressure of the mind game.

[Muttonman]

I tend to use Necalli in a very counter-offensive way. First looking for openings in my opponent’s guard then leading with The Disc’s Guidance. Once within close-quarters I find that I have more footsie options to choose from with his decently-ranged normals. All of this is fine but I still haven’t found a way to incorporate his command grab, i.e. Mask of Tlalli, into my play-style.

To get this ball rolling I have two questions:

1. What situations have you all found in which Mask of Tlalli works well?
2. What buttons do you use to open up your opponent to be command-grabbed?

Command grabs d

ex stomps should be reserved for counter pokes though, personally i cant justify spending meter if its blocked and being -2

It’s called a hit confirm, and it leaves you at positive two. With the meter build rate in this game and how retarded slow and easy hit confirming is, it’s worth the meter build.

If you’re hit confirming you should generally go into EX Slash rather than EX Stomps

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

Fake stomp: you cancel into a stomp which whiffs due to their recovery then throw them. It’s quite negative so it’s only when you know they’re looking to block the stomp though, but the lack of blockstun will catch players by surprise.

Just do a regular fake meaty with normals. It’s faster.

People aren’t able to react to a fake meaty though, moves come out too fast. The whole point here is that when your opponent has demonstrated that they’ll react to your HK Stomp to go with a faster one so that they are going to block (again, non-dp characters only) and then throw them as you’re right on top of them.

It’s a nice little gimmick to keep in your back pocket.

If you’re hit confirming, then you generally need two hits for your brain to react to the hit confirm. But if you have the reactions off one hit, then yeah, I agree with you.

I misinterpreted what you said about the “fake stomp”. I thought the terminology suggested it be used as a fake meaty. Outside of that, fake meaties work on all levels. It’s not about the whether or not the opponent can react to it. It’s about getting your opponent uptight and the pressure of the mind game.

You don’t go into EX Stomp on a hit confirm. You do it as a safe poke string. Big difference there; you’re not reacting to a hit when you cancel into EX Stomp, you’re putting it out there so that you get damage on hit and are safe on block.

The beauty behind a stomp fake meaty is that if they’re looking specifically for the stomp you’ll get them. They can’t react to a fake meaty of any other sort, none of your buttons are that slow. Thus you need an obvious meaty except the timing is off by such an imperceptible amount that they won’t know it’ll whiff. I did some more testing and found it works best if you do a super early HP so that the HK Stomp whiffs, least amount of recovery there.

[Korbidon]

Low forward buffered into EX Stomp is a nice way to make your pokes hurt.

[AudricVsFood]

I tend to use Necalli in a very counter-offensive way. First looking for openings in my opponent’s guard then leading with The Disc’s Guidance. Once within close-quarters I find that I have more footsie options to choose from with his decently-ranged normals. All of this is fine but I still haven’t found a way to incorporate his command grab, i.e. Mask of Tlalli, into my play-style.

To get this ball rolling I have two questions:

1. What situations have you all found in which Mask of Tlalli works well?
2. What buttons do you use to open up your opponent to be command-grabbed?

Command grabs d

ex stomps should be reserved for counter pokes though, personally i cant justify spending meter if its blocked and being -2

It’s called a hit confirm, and it leaves you at positive two. With the meter build rate in this game and how retarded slow and easy hit confirming is, it’s worth the meter build.

If you’re hit confirming you should generally go into EX Slash rather than EX Stomps

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

Fake stomp: you cancel into a stomp which whiffs due to their recovery then throw them. It’s quite negative so it’s only when you know they’re looking to block the stomp though, but the lack of blockstun will catch players by surprise.

Just do a regular fake meaty with normals. It’s faster.

People aren’t able to react to a fake meaty though, moves come out too fast. The whole point here is that when your opponent has demonstrated that they’ll react to your HK Stomp to go with a faster one so that they are going to block (again, non-dp characters only) and then throw them as you’re right on top of them.

It’s a nice little gimmick to keep in your back pocket.

If you’re hit confirming, then you generally need two hits for your brain to react to the hit confirm. But if you have the reactions off one hit, then yeah, I agree with you.

I misinterpreted what you said about the “fake stomp”. I thought the terminology suggested it be used as a fake meaty. Outside of that, fake meaties work on all levels. It’s not about the whether or not the opponent can react to it. It’s about getting your opponent uptight and the pressure of the mind game.

You don’t go into EX Stomp on a hit confirm. You do it as a safe poke string. Big difference there; you’re not reacting to a hit when you cancel into EX Stomp, you’re putting it out there so that you get damage on hit and are safe on block.

The beauty behind a stomp fake meaty is that if they’re looking specifically for the stomp you’ll get them. They can’t react to a fake meaty of any other sort, none of your buttons are that slow. Thus you need an obvious meaty except the timing is off by such an imperceptible amount that they won’t know it’ll whiff. I did some more testing and found it works best if you do a super early HP so that the HK Stomp whiffs, least amount of recovery there.

Lol you mean the fifty million times Alucard did the EX Stomp off a hit confirm on his way to winning NLBC wasn’t real/optimal?

[Korbidon]

Well, as with all Necalli stuff, it depends.

You can do LP Slash off a hitconfirm, which gives you the knockdown, but you need to be charged. You can LK stomp, which leaves you at+2 but that’s range dependent. EX Stomps is great because it hits from anywhere, you don’t need charge, and it leaves you at +2.

I’m not sure if Alucard is on SRK, but I’d be interested in his thoughts on what Necalli’s go to BnB should be optimally.

[Muttonman]

I tend to use Necalli in a very counter-offensive way. First looking for openings in my opponent’s guard then leading with The Disc’s Guidance. Once within close-quarters I find that I have more footsie options to choose from with his decently-ranged normals. All of this is fine but I still haven’t found a way to incorporate his command grab, i.e. Mask of Tlalli, into my play-style.

To get this ball rolling I have two questions:

1. What situations have you all found in which Mask of Tlalli works well?
2. What buttons do you use to open up your opponent to be command-grabbed?

Command grabs d

ex stomps should be reserved for counter pokes though, personally i cant justify spending meter if its blocked and being -2

It’s called a hit confirm, and it leaves you at positive two. With the meter build rate in this game and how retarded slow and easy hit confirming is, it’s worth the meter build.

If you’re hit confirming you should generally go into EX Slash rather than EX Stomps

St HP into meaty HK stomp would be big damage if they push buttons. Surely you can react to the HK stomp startup though?

You can but it can be tough due to the variety of options you have in the situation, plus if they don’t have a reversal you can always go for the fake stomp (either an LK/MK stomp or an early reset into HK Stomp) into throw.

Mindgames all the way down.

LK stomp is -4 on block while MK stomp is -2. Those gimmicks don’t work against good players.

Fake stomp: you cancel into a stomp which whiffs due to their recovery then throw them. It’s quite negative so it’s only when you know they’re looking to block the stomp though, but the lack of blockstun will catch players by surprise.

Just do a regular fake meaty with normals. It’s faster.

People aren’t able to react to a fake meaty though, moves come out too fast. The whole point here is that when your opponent has demonstrated that they’ll react to your HK Stomp to go with a faster one so that they are going to block (again, non-dp characters only) and then throw them as you’re right on top of them.

It’s a nice little gimmick to keep in your back pocket.

If you’re hit confirming, then you generally need two hits for your brain to react to the hit confirm. But if you have the reactions off one hit, then yeah, I agree with you.

I misinterpreted what you said about the “fake stomp”. I thought the terminology suggested it be used as a fake meaty. Outside of that, fake meaties work on all levels. It’s not about the whether or not the opponent can react to it. It’s about getting your opponent uptight and the pressure of the mind game.

You don’t go into EX Stomp on a hit confirm. You do it as a safe poke string. Big difference there; you’re not reacting to a hit when you cancel into EX Stomp, you’re putting it out there so that you get damage on hit and are safe on block.

The beauty behind a stomp fake meaty is that if they’re looking specifically for the stomp you’ll get them. They can’t react to a fake meaty of any other sort, none of your buttons are that slow. Thus you need an obvious meaty except the timing is off by such an imperceptible amount that they won’t know it’ll whiff. I did some more testing and found it works best if you do a super early HP so that the HK Stomp whiffs, least amount of recovery there.

Lol you mean the fifty million times Alucard did the EX Stomp off a hit confirm on his way to winning NLBC wasn’t real/optimal?

Probably not optimal, no. I mean this is still the first month of play, we weren’t even seeing optimal combos at Winter Brawl so I don’t know why you’d try and use that as proof.

[AreEyeSeaKay]

A little late to the party here, but Alucard was using lp x2 to confirm into ex stomps to catch a variety of opponents pushing buttons while frame negative.

Necalli player on daigo’s stream (Kaz maybe? Doesn’t recognize him immediately) was also doing this en route to breaking daigo a few times. It can help you become the aggressor (frame advantage), which is where you want to be.

Not sure I like seeing it used as a block string, which Alucard seemed to do pretty frequently.

[Necrotrophic]

well, as a block string, you’re -2 so you pretty much lose any real pressure.

The way I’ve been using stomps is in footsies space your cr.mk right in front if they press something buffer ex stomps, that way you’re +2

[AreEyeSeaKay]

I think that’s a good use for it, and what Korbidon was referring to. It makes your pokes hurt.

[Muttonman]

EX Stomps are great in a few cases

Light confirms
Safe pokestrings
HK Stomp juggles

You just don’t get much off a combo into them though, especially when EX Slash has half screen corner carry.

[AreEyeSeaKay]

Exactly. I think the best case to use them is light confirms/cr mk buffered at the right ranges.

I guess you could use it as a combo ender in the corner to maintain pressure?

[Muttonman]

Exactly. I think the best case to use them is light confirms/cr mk buffered at the right ranges.

I guess you could use it as a combo ender in the corner to maintain pressure?

God no, you get a setup off an EX Slash if you’re anywhere close to the corner. You’re out of range for just about everything but the edge of a cr.mk/cr.mp after EX Stomps.