If you do sweep, dash into st.fierce you will be able to meaty both regular and backwards tech rolls. You can also cancel into stomp, though it will be much harder to convert.
His stand fierce has a lot of cancellable frames, if you do it up close and react to the AC flash, you can immediately go into command grab. Alpha counter dependent of course,also not easy to do
If you do a super late j.lk/j.lp and immediately do command grab on landing, they cannot jab out. (throw invul is actually only 2f like in SF4)
Cr.lk cr.lp has a very tiny gap in it, good for beating out wakeup buttons.
In VT off normal throw, you can dash st.mp/cr.hp free meaty. I honestly think necalliās command grab (minus the EX one) is complete trash, normal one is faster, safer, does the same damage as LP version and gets you a mixup. You get absolutely nothing after command grab, even in VT mode. Itās really good for meter build however, if theyāre stunned and low on life, always end it w/ command grab for maximum meter gain.
An extremely meaty st.lk into LP/EX command grab works, but itās almost impossible to time. You literally have to do it on the last possible active frame.
cr.lp xx VT cr.lp HP DP works as a way to convert off wakeup cr.lp
otakugamer was just wondering why you say there is a better setup off throw than command grab. do they not yield basically the same setup? that is what i am seeing, you basically get nothing off either because they can both be quick rised / backrolled.
Canāt be backrolled, but no, you donāt get jack off a regular command grab. Enough advantage to throw out a button with a HP Grab but thatās it. EX lets you do resets or a sweep midscreen and the EX -> DP gives you a meaty setup in the corner. Regular throws in the corner let you do a meaty setup as well.
Iāll crosspost from the General Thread as it probably belongs here HOW TO COMBO WITH NECALLI AND DO OKI OUTSIDE OF VT
Okay, scratch most of the TC stuff; I could swear I had it working on launch but I canāt replicate it. Backroll seems to beat pressure for free. The sweep stuff is still good, a single dash + wait a frame for a perfect meaty st.lk, hold forward and you can react to the backroll as well and catch it.
You should always be comboing into TC midscreen unless you can land a HP or plan on spending meter. Backroll gets you out of LP DG pressure for free midscreen, while a TC lets you do double dash meaty st.lk (which links into cr.mp) to catch backrolls. Said double dash is needed to chase down backrolls but leaves you negative on DG enders. You give up 40 damage and 80 stun but the fact that this keeps up the pressure is worthwhile. On a quickrise youāre only ~+1 after the double dash so you wonāt get the free st.lk -> medium link so it comes down to if they have a 3f jab or not. If they do, consider meatying with a jab for the CH to a medium. If they donāt, use your st.mk to meaty.
After a mid to close range sweep (either by itself or as part of a combo such as EX Grab) you can do dash meaty st.lk (combos into mediums). If they backroll you have to delay it slightly and can only connect a single medium although the TC works and it pretty much optimal damage.
Which means for midscreen
TC: Double Dash. React to Quick Rise with cr.lp/st.mk depending on if they have a 3f jab. St.lk on a backroll, link to cr.mp xx DG. You are out of range for a command grab after the st.lk on backroll (but can meaty with it) but you can walk forward slightly and do it or frametrap with cr.mp xx mk/ex stomp.
DG: Single dash. You can meaty a st.lk -> cr.mp on quickrise, can only get a dash -> walk slightly forward -> cr.mk on backroll.
Close to midrange sweep: Dash -> st.lk. Hold forward and slightly delay the st.lk on backroll. Goes into st.mk
Command Grab (non-ex): Return to netural
Throw: Dash, then walk forward slightly and either do a cr.mp (combos to LK/EX stomp) or command grab. Back throw has more advantage so use it midscreen when you have a choice, otherwise just chuck them into the corner.
SO DONāT END YOUR COMBOS IN LP DISCāS GUIDANCE UNLESS YOUāLL PUSH THEM INTO THE CORNER WHEN STARTING WITH A LIGHT OR MEDIUM! Use his target combo, it sacrifices a bit of damage for a guaranteed super meaty setup! You get to make your opponent guess strike/throw twice in a row! You build V Gauge so you can go Super Saiyan! You can even VTC the VSkill for an air reset cross under! If you land a heavy jump in or other party starter go for the hp xx mk stomp -> cr.mp xx LP/EX DG though.
Really, very few characters have scarier oki than this.
What muttonman said, but the command grab and super also only allow a regular tech roll no backwards roll.
I strongly disagree with this school of philosophy. You are sacrificing more than 100 damage, more meter build for subpar mixup opportunity; its not like AE Akuma where doing sweep after tatsu landed slightly less damage but offered enormous opportunity to mixup. Also, against backrolls you will have a tough time scaring someone into a mixup. I would always do the fierce stomp combo just because it does so much damage. After LP rush you can dash st.fierce for meaty, or dash dash cr.lp for backwards rolls, but I havenāt practiced reacting to each.
Fact of the matter is, a lot of characters (not just necalli) donāt have necessarily āgoodā oki (when speaking in the context of SF4, where everyone has oki). In VT mode everything he does has oki due to the speed of his dash, but other than certain things like sweep or the corner, heās not gonna get anything. Thatās not necessarily a bad thing though, just have to land another hit from neutral.
Sorry, this is all about medium hit confirms outside of VT, might have dropped that part when I brought it over. If you can land the HP stomp loop you go for it. Iāll edit that in.
i have always went for a slash ender myself because i think the corner carry, damage, meter, and stun are more valuable than the v gauge. but the v trigger and v reversal are amazing tools too, i cant discount the strategy, especially in certain situations / matchups
Itās not just that, itās that you get no real pressure after a slash unless it ends with them in the corner. TC gives you a supermeaty st.lk/throw mixup, and if you go for the meaty and they block you get another strike/throw mixup. You donāt get anything but the tip of a cr.mk for pressure if you end on a slash midscreen.
Itās about expected value; on average a TC combo into mixup is going to do more damage than ending on LP Slash and has the possibility to loop back into itself. LP Slash puts you back in neutral
i dont always want to pressure though either. if i have a life lead id prefer to just neutral at that point instead of gambling on the pressure. like i said, i agree can see the value in the setup, thats why i included it in the OP
Oh okay, that makes more sense then. Still, if we are talking about confirms, I have a hard time landing the st.mp into TC outside of VT or on crouching. It has to be character size dependent or crouch dependent or something.
On knockdown, Iāve been doing cr. HP x mk. stomp as meaty pressure. If the cr.HP counter hits it launches and the stomp connects. Iām correct that thereās no followup to this right? What other meaty pressure setups would you guys recommend instead if this isnāt optimal?
you are correct there is no followup. if you end up with the Crush Counter theres nothing you can do to get more damage or better knockdown other than just using an EX move or HK stomp. You could probably do FP CC and then Sweep for a better knockdown as sweeps cant be backrolled i have learned now lol. if you just let the FP CC hit, they cant quick rise or back roll it because CCs are untechable.
The only thing you really get out of a cr. HP x stomp on CH is another oki setup which is still nice.
After you condition the opponent to block a nice reset is to EX Mask of Tlalli into HP dash forward and HP Mask of Tlalli. It will only work once or twice in a match but its a very hefty amount of damage and stun.
Iāve been experimenting heavily with using EX Mask of Tlalli for resets and 50/50 setups over pure damage and I have been getting a lot of mileage out of it so far. I would go for damage if your opponent is playing the drums on his stick but if you get them scared your reset and mixup options go through the roof.
If they block youāre at negative frames so I do not like that oki unless you are completely unable to get close enough to do something confirmable.
Basically st.lk is the god meaty. After that you can go with a meaty st.mp which has 3 active frames so you can pump it up to +7/+4 but the pushback is much worse.
Alright, here are some crush counter combos off of s. HK.
Max Range: s. HK > TC xx V skill 238 damage 385 stun s. HK > TC xx V skill xx VT > HP slash 313 damage 460 stun s. HK > s. HK xx VT > s. HP xx HP slash 342 damage 510 stun s. HK > s. HK xx VT > s. HP xx HK stomp > super 514 damage 540 stun s. HK > MP slash 225 damage 315 stun (VT only) s. HK > s. HP xx HP slash 309 damage 435 stun (VT only) s. HK > s. HP xx HK stomp > HP DP 362 damage 552 stun (VT/corner only) s. HK > s. HP xx HK stomp > super 547 damage 475 stun (VT only)
Close Range: s. HK > c. HP xx MK stomp > c. MP xx LP slash 332 damage 555 stun s. HK > c. HP xx MK stomp > c. MP xx MP slash 388 damage 555 stun (VT only) s. HK > s. HK xx VT > c. HP xx MK stomp > c. MP xx MP slash 393 damage 590 stun s. HK > s. HK xx VT > c. HP xx MK stomp > c. MP xx MK stomp xx super 564 damage 570 stun (max damage?)
That last combo is not really worth it but I listed it anyway cause big damage.
if you consider that adding on an EX slash will only add anywhere from 30-50 damage, it is actually worth it no matter what because the max extra damage you would be earning by using EX moves in place (example the previous combo s. HK > s. HK xx VT > c. HP xx MK stomp > c. MP xx MP slash 393 damage 590 stun replace MP with EX and you will only earn 428 Damage).
Of course you have to factor in stun, opportunity and utility, but damage wise itās not really a waste. Thanks for taking the time to write these damage and stun values.
CA is actually really good to hold onto if you think youāll be able to get a stun, as itās scaling caps out at 50%. So do a long combo into stun, do the longest followup you can, end on CA, still get great damage.
But Iād burn meter on EX moves within a combo outside of VT in three main scenarios. First is a HK Stomp where I donāt think I can land the DP followup because itās just on the edge of its range so you do EX Stomp. Second is obviously comboing out of jabs into EX Stomp. The last is in combos ending on LP Slash, upgrading to EX Slash is pretty good.
Other uses for EX Meter: EX DP is super fast and very invincible. EX Grab has solid range and leads to either a DP, air reset, or sweep to setup. EX Stomps are safer than LP stomp for doing 2 in 1 pokes and hit from further away. Hit confirming out of stomps into CA is how I win half my games. The other half is of course throwing out the CA after a blocked stomp if they like to poke after it
