basically after the airbone lk stomp in the corner you get a free mk meaty stomp which allows you to keep them guessing afterwards.
So the big debate seems to be whether itās better to go with st. mk > cr. mp xx Lp Disc or TC. Iāve been thinking about this for a while and here are my two cents:
first just a question, presumably TC should always end with holding back v skill (the close one) since it always hits, and only that one can be canceled into CA, and it allows reset in the corner. But do others have uses for the neutral v skill? I donāt believe which v skill to use has been specified, as far as i can tell it doesnāt change the setup either way.
In short, I think the TC is useful at mid stage on a cross up in order to cancel into CA or in the corner for a reset. But otherwise, cr. mp xx Disc seems better to me because it is more practical.
What Muttonman was suggesting is very attractive because it theoretically gives you a single routine to effectively get a meaty off knockdown 100% of the time, but I spent about three hours practicing TC into double dash with different wakeup options for the CPU and I couldnāt get anywhere close to consistent- either I was messing up the dash or pressing my meaty a little too early or late (and I honestly still have trouble with the v skill at the end of TC after practicing that for a month now, I tend to rush the inputs). So, I guess Iām not very good at execution, but I am way more consistent with the other combo, and just on that level its more practical.
But also, even if I could consistently execute that plan, Iām still leaning towards cr.mp xx Disc in most situations because itās way more practical on the ground in any scenario. st. lk > st. mk > cr. mp is a good frame trap, but target combo is -8 on block and itās much easier to confirm the Disc after three normals than the st. Hk after one or two. Also, cr. mp xx Disc is the tool I use most to punish so overall I end up in that scenario more often anyways.
And that scenario, after Disc, isnāt so bad- if the opponent doesnāt backroll you have plenty of time to dash up and do a wide variety of things, and furthermore these options are much easier for me.
If the opponent does backroll, the TC double dash is certainly a better option. But after a Disc you can still jump forward Hk which will hit on either a quickrise or a backroll, or its fine to just be satisfied with returning to neutral. It would be nice to take advantage of knockdown even on backroll, but itās safer to step off the gas a little, and that works for me.
So, since TC does less damage and is less practical, I personally plan to use Disc combo unless I can get a followup to TC such as CA or Vtc > Hp Disc or reset in the corner.
What do you guys think?
- Back V Skill in the Target Combo doesnāt always connect. This is especially true if youāre whiff punishing with st.MK
- It sounds like youāre just having an issue with execution consistency. It has less to do with practicability and it just has more to do with you putting in more time in order to become more consistent. Three hours may sound like a lot of time, but itās regularity in how often you practice it thatās more important, imo.
- An issue with setting the CPU to wake up differently as opposed to playing against actual people is that youāll have a read on what the opponent likes to do on wakeup. So itās not just raw reaction, itās a combination of read and reaction that youāll be doing in real sets.
- Target combo is -8 on block, but you shouldnāt be doing it on block.
- It is much easier to confirm into DG after three normals, but that shouldnāt be an excuse to default to it all the time. I mean, you see people from top players to intermediate players do single hit confirms into Supers. Itās not easy, but the payout is worth it. Same thing for Necalliās TC as opposed to DG.
- If the opponent knows the matchup, theyāll back roll after DG every time. Necalli is sub par in neutral in a lot of matchups, so the back roll works in their advantage, even if theyāre a little closer to the corner on their wakeup. They can regain that ground in the neutral game.
AudricVsFood- All good points and helpful, thanks!
Iām still not convinced, though- maybe if someone could show some footage I would understand the idea better? But I watch a good amount of necalli footage (mostly on CFN, which isnāt as good as tournament footage, but itās much more available) and donāt recall ever seeing anyone do target combo into double dash. I mean, its at least true that you can be one of the top necalli players in the world (see Alucard) and not use this strategy. Yet by no means have I watched all the footage! I tried to find Muttonman on CFN but I couldnāt. Iād really like to see this technique in action.
Iām very willing to put in the time to get the execution right, but Iām just not convinced itās worth it at this point, and thatās what I want to discuss. Not only because of all the difficulties I mentioned, but because putting those aside, it seems reasonable to choose Disc anyways for greater corner carry and damage. Of course, weāre talking about a specific scenario and there are a ton of other variables to consider like health, stun, player tendencies, positioning, etc. But I need to see this tech in action before Iām convinced that its the best tool in mid stage situations- theoretically it should be the best answer to backroll, but I donāt think itās the best answer to quick rise or slow rise.
Alucard has dashed up st.MK and hit the target combo on reaction in footsies.
Also, Brian_F is a really good player and has a good piece on TC optimization after knockdown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiWtWhUdh6Q
Muttonman was the first person Iāve seen talk about prioritizing TC over DC combo finishers.
PR Balrog feels similarly: https://twitter.com/PR_Balrog/status/727572244491206656
Letās not forget another good reason to prioritize TC over DC is to build up the V Meter by 2/5ths of a bar. Necalli in V Trigger is the strongest character in the game, according to Momochi.
Also, another component to take into consideration: If you use TC, you have more advantage regardless of what the opponent does. This means youāll be able to continue with pressure. Even if we donāt think about the psychological aspect of the wakeup game alone, what we get to do is press more buttons and keep the opponent guessing. Blocked normals inflict gray damage, which subsequently adds to the variable of health and opponentās psychology, more pushback to the corner, etc.
st.MK, cr.MP, LP DG - 186/310
Target combo - 146/230
Furthermore, double dash after TC covers both normal recovery and back roll. +1 and +6 respectively.
Couple of notes
If you know theyāre going to backroll the Slash ender you can double dash and be +2. The problem is that if they quickrise youāre -3 and thus punishable. Hence why itās not as good, as youāre putting yourself in a mixup. So if they know this theyāll mix up their wakeup.
st.mk -> cr.mp xx CA actually does more damage than TC xx CA, but you donāt get the V Gauge
While St.mk is his best whiff punish, be warned that if youāre tapping the end of limbs the only thing that will connect after a single normal is your CA. The st.hk part of TC will whiff and Slash will hit too late. If you can, whiff punish with sweep to prevent this.
As for following up the TC, you do need a frame perfect double dash -> meaty. It does take practice, I still donāt have it down 100%. Granted, that can be blamed on the Revelator demo (and full game on Tuesday) + Overwatch both being way more fun than SFV
Awesome, thanks for the help. The video is exactly what I needed, since I wasnāt sure that I was doing it right and its no good to practice something the wrong way. Iām convinced that the TC double dash tech is in fact the best tool for Necalli at mid stage.
I also looked for some footage of Haitani (Battle Arena Melbourne 8 for example) and sure enough this is exactly the way Haitani plays- he goes for the TC at mid stage and then double dashes, but he uses the DG into the corner. Whatās more, he seemingly does everything he can to get Necalli into V-Trigger, using v skill a ton in neutral, overheads and St. Hk to get crush counters. He even will activate the V-trigger raw instead of waiting to cancel a button.
I also looked back at some of the final round 19 footage and its amazing that he was already playing that way so early in the game.
Obviously no tech is unbeatable and a player has to make adjustments/ use variations, but thanks for sharing the tech!
Another topic:
Necalliās stand jab is an amazing anti-air, and it allows for a lot of good set ups. This isnāt new tech but I think itās worth sharing. So after a St. Lp anti-air:
-If the opponent jumps near to Necalli he can dash and switch sides
-command throw beats 3f jabs.
-I also tick throw a lot if they land a bit further away
Anyone else have setups?
TC in the corner is actually better than non EX Slash; end on an LP DP for damage or a St.lk for a reset.
I like this ch combo. I can see it being quite useful as the necalli playerbase matures. Does it work with meaty st.mp or only ch? It might be super useful on air resets, etc.
I dunno if itās been mentioned already, but Iām seeing Japanese cfn players do c.mk, vt, c.hp, hk stomp into whatever. Is this good?
I prefer cr mk,vt,st hp, hp slash. Gives me some breathing room and I can dash to lk stomp to keep the pressure going.
Iāve seen that too. Iāll try to add that into my game as well.
Yeah hk stomp at that range (if you do it at max cr mk range) will be too far for hp DP. Ex dp can maybe work but super is your best bet. It leave sends them to the corner and you can keep your oki going.
I think I tried ex dp at max range, and itās only 1 hit and crap damage. I guess itās spacing dependent. Maybe itās better to let them drop, dash and oki?
You could, but if thats the case Iāll stick to hp slash to dash,lk stomp. It trades favorably with 3 frame jabs, counter hits 4 frame leaving at like +4.
IIRC, it works on both, but it may only hit crouching.
I prefer going for the HK Stomp only in the corner so that all hits of the follow up DP will land. If you end up going for the HK Stomp midscreen and you realize you fudged up or something, I believe you can follow up with EX Stomp regardless of spacing as long as you do it early enough.
A deep heavy jump in like that? You can go j.hp -> st.hk xx VTC -> slight walk forward cr.hp xx MK stomp -> cr.mp xx MK stomp xx CA
What about no V Trigger but full meter max? Hereās your combo. Very damaging!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UrJF18-Exo&feature=youtu.be