Yeah it depends. In faster games things that are slow still work very well. Like in skullgirls parasouls overhead is 21 frames but even sonicfox and co don’t block that shit on reaction… to much white noise… and parasol is a character that is one of the least marvelish of the cast… but she has really good multihitting lowas as well… so idk if people will be reacting that easily. In streetfighter there’s a big ding ding ding hey a mixup is coming whenever someone sees something not happening… in marvel that tell is less easy to distinguish because of the nature of the game… but only time will tell.
In Marvel there’s more of a push to react to things that are possible to react to because you’re not just put in a bad situation, you can be put in VERY bad situations or be dead. This looks easier to react to than even say Laura’s EX grab in SFV. With that grab you pretty much have to be focusing on nothing but the grab as if you see the EX flash she’s probably already grabbed you.
I slowed the video down and with how much movement Thanos was able to do before he got grabbed (walked a bit, crouched and started to stand back up) before the grab actually started, looks like you’re going to have to have something really nasty to get actually get it going. Ideally you’ll want something like a tag scenario where you throw out something that can trap them like a 2 hitting fireball that’s spaced out so there’s a gap, but if they try to hit a button they get hit. I can’t imagine too much basic pressure type things setting up this grab well. This looks like something where you can see the yellow gem and still jump or jab out.
We don’t really know how the game will pan out just yet, coming from sg I can already think of ways to set it up… like doing a move with big hitstun on the ground or a jump attack… then doing the command grab and tagging into your homie… you jump out of the command grab you get hit by the tagging homies normals as you are going up… or you do the command grab and then the tagging homie comes in and airthrows you as you jump… or frame traps your jumpout etc etc
You can probably just run up and do the command grab and immediately tag and bam you’ve got a scenario where your chicken block is fucked etc etc
If the command grab is cancelable into then that’s going to be even more rigged. You’ll be able to do a normal and then cancel into command grab, the command grab has big startup so it will hit as you come out of hitstun… so you have to jump and can’t interrupt with a jab… but the tagged in homie gets to wreck you.
There’s also the good ol unblockable ground command grab into air command grab… always fun… Mike z had to nerf this in skullgirls…
Let’s see how it pans out in mvci.
Yeah it’s going to require things that put you in bad situations if you jump the grab since being able to jump or jab out the grab seems very likely if done raw. The threat of the grab will likely create more bad things than the grab itself. If that ends up how it works. Mind stone players are going to have to do a lot of conditioning to keep people on the ground as everyone will just treat you like you’re a Zangief player as soon as they see you choose the yellow stone.
Naturally. Grabs have never been top tier. It’s the shit they set you up for that’s the problem.
True. It’s just even if you theoretically say that the issues you get into trying to escape the grab are scary, the grab itself seems to require a lot of work make optimal. You have to
- Hope the opponent sits long and doesn’t jab out your grab to grab them.
- Wait for a long stun to pass by as they get up giving them days to think about what you might do
- Land that set up right at the point that they come out of dizzy so you can get something that land without scaling.
I don’t think any of the other stone surges are going to require that much work to make effective or get a real basic use out of. Especially considering the stone surges build you extra stone gauge on activation. Which puts an onus on using them often like V Skills so you can get bar for playing well and not just getting beat up. Just as a step up from V Skills you also get bar for whiffing them. Which makes surges the only thing in a fighting game in a while that gives you bar for whiffing it that isn’t strictly a projectile.
The other surges generally seem more practical for application. Power surge gives you a nice defensive hit box if people get near you which you can even whiff in neutral to get gauge. Time gives you a generically far traveling movement tool that’s most likely stronger with tag setups that will also give you gauge on every use. Space surge just sounds good on paper with the armor and the ability to pull your opponent into the armor. Reality surge seems to have really good utility plus also builds gauge for whiffing and you can switch to your partner to whiff a second one. Not sure if it builds any faster or slower than the other surges, but for something that controls space that’s really strong. The slow traveling fireball basically guarantees you have some type of “assist” even if you’re down to one character.
Mind surge in comparison sounds like a lot more work to reap benefits for. Luckily like what was said by @Zachara in the lounge, Mind will likely be a stone where you activate the storm on half bar/minimum activation so you can just get to 4 bars as quickly as possible.
Meaty grab on incoming? Also, do we know if it grabs players already blocking?
There’s nothing stopping people creating Mind Surge setups, we’ll have to see how many pre jump frames there is, but it could be as simple as putting them into a reset and they just fall into the command grab. To be honest it’s being fair making Mind Surge so telegraphed as it’s a ridiculously powerful concept, imagine it being SPD type strong, it would be broken as fuck, Nova trujumps on your face, SPD into dizzy, let your imagination go wild. I think there will end up situations where people either have to choose between staying on the ground to block or attempting to upback away from a command grab, there’s already potential for a 50/50 right there with the removal of chicken guard. It might be more the fear factor of being on the ground that forces players to attempt to spend more time in the air, which eventually will get them punished one way or another.
What about mind surge>tag>jump forward air command grab/Nemesis AA command grab? Or even mind surge>tag>jump forward>mind surge to have a reality surge situation.
Might as well do a potential list for the Stone surges and storms as well.
This just factors overall potential and doesn’t really account for individual characters with a stone. There’s like a team that could be OD with power stone even if it’s not the strongest overall stone.
Power Stone
Surge: Looks like it’ll have a lot of good applications. Like all the surges it builds stone meter on whiff and being able to build meter with a seemingly high priority (though somewhat lengthy recovery) hit box doesn’t seem too bad. Adds wall bounce to your combos and generally seems useful for most of the cast. Definitely will be one of the best surges for building meter for your storm.
Storm: Power’s storm will likely take some time to maximize in gameplay, but I believe it’s secretly more threatening than people realize. Especially with it negating pushback from pushblock. Rushdown and grappler characters are going to be able to stay in once they get in with that stone. Other than finding some gap and flying away you are screwed just by how Marvel’s offense just becomes extremely one sided if you don’t have pushblock pushing the strings out. At that point it’s like Guilty Gear with no FDC or insta blocking. The storm has a lot of utility within combos and will most likely create some of the most damaging combos in the game. Plus zoning characters will likely be able to create stronger zoning patterns or ones that set up rushdown well with tag ins as there’s no pushback on the pushblock. Plus stronger long range projectile combos for characters like Arthur and Hawkeye.
Time Stone
Time Surge: Generically builds meter on whiff which is good. Will most likely requite attack/tag coverage to make safe as although it travels ridiculously fast, it only shoots you forward in one direction and seems to have lengthy recovery after whiffing. If people find ways to make this relatively safe or create setups then it’ll likely be good for neutral and building stone gauge. I’m sure teleportxxtag will cause a lot of day 1 shenanigans. Plus characters like Hulk and Hawkeye suddenly being able to get in on you could be potentially scary. Hawkeye going nuts with zoning then suddenly he teleports in your face for pressure.
Storm: Definitely seems to be one of the strongest storms on paper. Zero recovery on attacks and specials basically makes it work like an Alpha custom combo mode in Marvel. Which is really cheap as a lot of fireballs will become extremely dangerous in the storm. Morrigan will likely go back to UMVC3 levels of spam or worse now that she will have fireballs that recover so fast that she can likely block or immediately go into flight very quickly after a fireball. Plus will potentially allow her to just spam tons of fireballs on screen. Zero with time storm sogenmu will likely be one of the strongest lockdowns in the game.
Space Stone
Surge: Definitely one of the potentially more dangerous surges. May not be great for just pure random use which may negate its meter build abilities a bit, but used well sounds very dangerous. Pulls opponent towards you with armor protecting you during the pull. Likely will create a lot of situations where the opponent can only do a couple things to escape damage.
Storm: Likely will be the best day one storm along with mind. It’s just one of those storms that even a novice player will be able to take advantage of really easily and then a top player reaps even more benefits. If you’re bad at the game, oh well press 2 buttons and now you’ve placed your opponent in a situation where they lose access to tools on a level that probably hasn’t been seen in fighting games before. So many setups to create that will probably be near inescapable because the opponent can barely move forwards, backwards or even jump. You basically shrink their movement space to about a 1/3 of the screen at most. Plus what makes this potentially the most dangerous storm in the game is that it locks out their ability to use any of the tag mechanics unless they use a cinematic super which removes the box temporarily. Space Storm is by far the potentially most dangerous storm as it clearly limits the opponent the most before you even account for characters.
**Reality Stone
**
Surge: Most likely the best surge in the game so far. Only issue with this stone is that you can’t spam it 3 times in the air before landing which has a specific benefit for building meter. With that said you can still tag in a partner and shoot another one which may have solid meter building capabilities on its own. This is essenetially the closest any surge is to giving you an assist even if you’re down to one character so this will be particularly strong for mix up characters and especially zoning characters. Characters like Chris that have trouble covering things coming at them or running away from them diagonally and up can now have a surge that always covers that area. Doing basic stuff like jumping over an opponent, doing a reality surge and then tagging in another character will likely create situations where the opponent is forced into a left right mix up that they are forced to pushblock reflect to escape. Which you can just bait that and throw/command throw them.
Storm: May not be the cheapest storm, but still one of the most beneficial. Basically gives you a bunch of full horizontal or vertical screened attacks that act as summons. Which means activating any of them right before you get hit will break you out of a combo. Making this very powerful for zoning characters as they can pretty much always get a combo breaker as long as they hit one of the elements before they get hit. It’s probably going to be a lot more specific who gets the best what out of this storm, but the nice thing is that it does a lot of things overall. Combo breaking, electrical wall setting up mix ups most likely, fire dragon keeping the opponent from jumping/running away and ice can catch people pressing buttons and freeze them into more damage/mix up.
**Mind Stone
**
Surge: Hmmm…kinda iffy about this surge. Range doesn’t seem great (just ok) and the start up looks pretty bad. Like very visually easy to react and jump or mash out of. Which means you will have to come up with dangerous setups that are more threatening than the actual command grab. Which those setups would likely still be threatening without that surge. Then if you do all of that work to land it you have to go through another process of waiting for them or creating something that resets them out of the dizzy to get any real actual damage. Continuing to combo them after the dizzy creates heavy scaling that makes even level 3s do insignificant damage. If you can whiff it 3 times in the air before landing that might be one immediately strong point. That and giving everyone an air command grab if it can be done in the air (that will still be very slow start up and nearly impossible to set up on airborne opponent). The fact that the stone may only be effective on grounded opponents is another issue.
Stone: To make up for the meh sounding surge, it seems to be one of the strongest storms and likely the strongest storm day one along with space storm. Too many activation type characters in this game that will be OD with lots of meter. Plus characters with invincible hypers like Captain America that can fish for button presses and try to connect with hyper. If you block just tag into partner and go more nuts. Will likely be one of the storms that is best to activate at half full as getting 4 bars will easily be done before a half charged storm ends and 4 bars is plenty enough to do a lot of work with and guarantees you 2 hit stun and block stun counter swtiches.
**
Overall: **I think the game will come to a point where certain stones will have really strong surges with good storms and other stones will have ok at best surges, but very powerful storms.
Overall best surge = Reality surge. Despite not being able to spam it as much as some of the other surges, the fact that its a homing fireball that acts as an assist makes it the best pretty much on its own. Plenty of hard to escape tag shenanigans will be made from this with about half the work of the mind surge. Plus always puts a hit box in front of you that has to be shot at with another projectile or reflected with gold pushblock to escape. Which there will be ways to bait those as well. A projectile hit box that builds stone gauge on whiff is also good. and will be particularly good for zoning characters as it gives them a way to build closer to the surge while doing their general gameplan. Covering that diagonal upwards spot of the screen that some of them normally have trouble dealing with .
Overall best storm = Space Storm. Mind storm got close, but even at only half gauge trapping people into a box where they can’t use tag options is going to be especially scary. No storm removes more movement and options from the character than this storm.
**Surge strength potential (strongest to weakest) = Reality, Power, Time, Space, Mind.
**
Reality is for obvious reasons listed. Power is just good as it sends out a strong hit box that you can whiff in air to build meter. Time is another thing that will likely be easy to punish raw, but with air runaway and tag shenanigans will likely be difficult to deal with and build meter well. Space may be stronger for some characters than others and not as easy to just use randomly, but has potential. Mind just seems to require way too much work to do stuff that the other surges can do with less work. Plus likely the least useful surge in the air other than whiffing for meter build (if it can be used in the air).
**Storm strength potential (strongest to weakest) = Space, Mind, Time, Reality, Power
**
Space Storm is obvious. Puts you in very limited area of movement where running away and even rushing down becomes extremely difficult and removes all of your tag options. Mind is strong just because Marvel has traditionally been balanced around who can do the dumbest shit with meter (particularly activation and tag supers). Time is up there because about the dumbest shit you’ll be able to do in the game most likely consists of activation super + time storm adding little to no recovery to activation super projectiles. Reality while nothing seemingly insanely cheap in it, still gives you natural combo breakers and generally limits space for the opponent to move while setting offense and zoning for your character. Power storm may likely be the hardest storm to make scary from a range, but once someone gets in with this storm I don’t see how you’re going to escape not getting hit. Plus some of the most damaging combos likely to come from the storm.
Reacting to shit also includes how much input delay is in the game. I’m guessing the same as sf5 which means to get ready to get hit by stuff you felt you blocked.
Likely. Though there will still be a premium on really hard to react to mix ups over ones that are just kinda hard to react to.
6 frames. If you can react to stuff in KoFXIV, you can react to stuff here.
Plus if we’re coming from Marvels like Marvel 3 there were enough mix ups in that game that were just frame 50/50’s. Meaning there was no time to see if the mix up was coming one way or the other like a safe jump or gapped mix up. No lag can save you there because you’re either already blocking the right way or you’re not and get rekt with almost no visual tell.
Lag or no lag Marvel has some of the most oppressive mix ups that pretty much require reads or guess work to escape any way. The lag is going to be more about how well people can execute movement and combos. Once people put the bullshit on you, offline or online it’s going to be bullshit.
All the game can really do at this point is minimize how quickly you die from everything which gives you more times to read patterns in their play and mix up. Which is what things like the combo scaling/undizzies and counter switches are for. You can’t kill entire characters or win entire matches on being the first one to land your scum. Zero/Firebrand/Dark Vergil style “win if you get started” tactics should basically be gone in this game.
So, long story short, don’t get caught blocking.
I like this thread. Good read. I thought reality stone was meh but you opened up my mind where it is strong.
From the GD thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3eQEIOwfJ4
Hmm, so tech throw throws you all away to the other side of the screen now, meaning no more throw tech shenanigans.
Yeah I figured that’s what happened during throw techs. No way they were going to let throw tech loops happen 2 games in a row
Throws remove all your red health now so they’re definitely too dangerous to leave up to mashing techs.
On a whim I just thought of an application for Space Surge and that’s during counter switch. If you’re being combo’d and then counter switch, all you’d have to do would be to use Space Surge to pull the enemy towards the point character saving added damage to your partner an potential punish.
Some thoughts on the Space Surge’s application:
- Could you force someone to stay close by canceling the surge into the storm, preventing any late backwards movement?
- How about tagging on a surge followed by another surge? You could probably displace someone pretty far with that.
Really want to see some crazy combos with Power/Reality storms so I can get a better idea of how their damage output relates to what you can do with the Time/Mind storms.