13701

Hold on Magneto, stand right there while I slide towards you without doing a magic series to keep you in block stun first. That’s right, take it like a man.

13702

After watching LLND’s latest performance at WNF, I don’t know what to believe anymore. He was doing 4 way mix-ups with Hsien Ko on incoming characters. This fucking game :smiley:

13703

Is there a link so I can watch them magics?

13704

Yeah, I just checked. Omg she’s awful. I think her, Chun, Jill and the shotos are the only ones with worse range than Iron Man.

13705

http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/296233648 (LLND starts at about 44:44)

13706

First: I love you.
Second: Proof that Hsien-Ko is D-Tier.

13707


[LIST]
[]Part 1 @ 44:30. Lets it rock with Hsien Ko in the first round.
[]Part 1 @ 1:16:00
[*]Part 2 @ the beginning
[/LIST]
Lot of sloppiness too but still, scary to even see some of that stuff from the worst character in the game. I think most people would get hit by her tricks given that they’ve probably never played against her before.

13708

I’m not kidding, it’s as good or better then most of the characters, but the nature of IM’s normals means you pretty much have to sweep into it to avoid pushback. So it’s his 5B and 5C that force you to sweep into it.

It also has a really cool cross-up hitbox (cross under in this case) like Magneto. And with some simple execution tricks or assists it’s reasonably safe.

Edit: as you pointed out, it doesn’t really matter anyways as you always sweep into it. And no one should be throwing out launchers on block anyways.

IM’s abare is not ass, its… advanced. I’m not trying to say 2C is an amazing move, but it’s far from bad. IM’s 5B, that’s a pretty bad move, despite its range and speed.

I made a little vid a while back of all the common ways to link off IM’s 2C:

Thanks to his 5C’s huge hit/block stun and the fact that 2C is +4 (at point blank), it’s actually a fairly good tool for confirms, and dealing with AG.

13709

Alright…so this is being brought up. What have they said for sure that they’ve buffed with Hsien Ko? Cuz from it sounds like it’s nothing that will get her into any better than B tier.

13710

I don’t think that, given Hsien-Ko’s design, it is possible for her to be good in Marvel (along with Haggar). However, with Tron and Haggar assists nerfed, her golden Pendulum suddenly looks alot better.

13711

I mean I hear people say that if she could cancel her pendulum on point she would shoot up the tiers but…i dunno.

I was hoping something would come about her being able to just frame combo her items…but i guess not either.

13712

It’s totally possible for her to be good in Marvel, I could take 3-4 (major) buffs with her and instantly make her scary. Fixing a lot of the things that just lower her from other characters would be a good start though. (random failures on hit boxes, randomly lower damage output etc.) As someone who doesn’t play as her seriously these may be way off base.

Off the top of my head other than just a straight damage boost:

Gong’s reflect properties should extend to beams such as EM disruptor, Unibeam, etc. Make it start up when it looks like it should, not later. Slightly increase its vertical hitbox so it’s not quite so easy to shoot over it erratically. Slightly decrease recovery.

Make air run’s speed into an actual run, 200-300% increase, maintain momentum after cancelling it into moves.

Pendulum cancels.

Increase duration of gold armor to 8 seconds.

Decrease total duration of teleport.

With those she’d have dramatically stronger anti Zoning tools and although her runaway is slightly improved her ability to get in is much stronger, once she’s in having those basic options along with pendulum cancels means she has scary 5 way mix up that more importantly can maintain the pressure instead of a single advance guard into the victim getting to use their superior movement to get her away for free. Longer gold armor means that on point with the inability to run away from her as well along with increased gold armor duration you actually have to be afraid once she has it on.

13713

The buffs Ko has gotten so far are:
• Faster Gong startup
• Faster Chireitou (blades hyper) startup
• Mashing with Tenrai Ha (Anvil and iron balls) spawns more balls
• Command normals are jump-cancelable (may lead to resets, etc.)
• And, of course, she has new shit to throw

So basically nothing that important, though the TRH/Command normal buff might help her damage a bit. Her biggest problem is her speed, but Capcom seems afraid to do anything with it probably because of Golden Armor (and I think their fear is unfounded). A straight up speed boost would help a lot, and so would a cancelable Pendulum. I don’t think she’d go skyrocketing up the tiers, but it’d certainly make her more viable, which is all we want, really. Given her design (specializing in setups and mixups), she should at least be decent in this game, but she’s nothing when you take away the stats to use her tools.

Another big gripe is the bombs she throws out. They have no hitboxes, so when you’re trying to keep an opponent out/set something up/hit an incoming character, it just passes through the opponent and you , more often than not, eat a punish. They’re randomly tossed out, too, so there’s always a stupid risk with using Anki Hou.

And that launcher is terrible. Yeah, let’s give a character with nice long-ranged normals one of the shortest-ranged launchers in the game. Great idea.

So basically, you can tell she was added very late in the dev process because she feels half-baked. Rather than risk her hyper armor being broken (or something), just make her ass. Meanwhile…

Props to LL.ND, though. I’ve got to study those mixups later. It’s just that he plays great, and then almost always makes a careless mistake that costs him the match or nearly does. His last match against UPA just reinforces how bad the Mags matchup is, too. Not like I could’ve done any better, or even close, of course.

13714

I don’t see why Hsien-Ko couldn’t be good in Marvel. Her issues are that…

  • She has ridiculous low damage output, which is really because the damaging scale is a douchebag to a fraction of the cast. Meanwhile the Damage scaling allows Wolverine,Taskmaster,etc do some retarded stuff.

  • She is too slow, there is no reason for her to have low health…she can’t maneuver across the screen.

Making her air dash faster, allow her to cancel her signature move. Boost her damage, she can open people just fine. Done. It’s not that hard…

13715

Just as a minor correction but you’re only half right. Wolverine actually has pretty bad minimal damage scaling it’s mostly the fact that his moves do more damage from the get go and that none of them are multi-hitting yield his damage output. Taskmaster on the other hand has very good damage scaling minimums in addition to having a glitch involving his Legion Arrow hyper.

13716

Sounds like Capcom is banking on the nerf of the Tron/Haggar assists will have her assist bump up in popularity. I’m getting the feeling at this point that they want her to the Vanilla Haggar of UMVC3 but with a meter requirement. I’m almost convinced that she was designed to be an assist character at this point.

13717

“really good assist” does seem to be Capcom’s way of punting.

13718

The Hsien-Ko forums have a list of very reasonable requests that would, in my opinion, not cause her to skyrocket in tiers, but will make her a much more viable character. That’s all HK fans want really - a character who is able to compete with the rest of the cast. Right now, if you manage to score a win with Hsien-Ko on point, it is likely because your opponent either played incredibly sloppy or you managed to mindfuck them from start to finish and made no mistakes AND were lucky enough to not have any of her specials blow up in your face. No character should be both incredibly difficult to use and at the same time extremely unrewarding. Being able to say, “I beat you with Hsien-Ko.” at the end of the match just isn’t enough.

Speed aside, Hsien-Ko’s main issues right now involve her most useful normals creating horrible scaling issues that destroy her damage output, and many of her specials and supers being unreliable at best.

Examples:

  • Henkyo Ki, her “Gong” ability, fails often against fast moving projectiles, such as Samurai Edge, Disruptor and Plasma Beam. The reflect animation and “sound” will go off, but the projectile will still push through and damage her.
  • Henkyo Ki shockwaves disappear if she gets hit. This is probably by design, but severely hampers the main line of defense for what appears to be a zoning character. This also creates the problem mentioned above.
  • Anki Hou, her “Item Toss” ability is plagued by the existence of her bombs. As mentioned by Noble Cactus, they have no hitbox and will phase harmlessly through an approaching projectile or opponent who can severely punish her. This makes the move almost not worth using at all.
  • Senpu Bu, her “Pendulum” ability is currently her fastest way to move across the screen, but once she starts the move she is completely committed to it, making it easily punishable and makes her approach very predictable. Without the ability to cancel the move mid swing and block (think Spider-Man’s web zip) she simply becomes a huge moving target.
  • Chireitou, her “Blades” super is one of the worst in the game in my opinion. First and foremost, it has no invincibility and a painfully slow start-up, making it easily avoidable or punishable. Second of all, the blades phase right through incoming projectiles, so she can still be easily hit after activating it. The blades move very slowly across the screen, making them very easy to avoid. On block, the move is laughable because only two of the blades will affect a blocking opponent - after that they are free to move as the rest of the blades continue behind them. Last but not least, if you manage to catch the point character and an assist with the move, the point character will only be affected by one blade, then harmlessly fall out of the move. I honestly don’t know what they were thinking with this move. It OTGs like Magnetic Shockwave and Mighty Thunder, but doesn’t cover the entirety of the screen like those moves, so it can’t be used as an emergency anti-air or GTFO super. It moves at the same height limit as Hyper Sentinel Force, but lacks the speed, damage and projectile destroying qualities of that move. Also,
  • Tenrai Ha - her “Ball Drop” super is just about her only redeeming factor, but even this move has its own share of problems. By design, the anvil that scores the first hit causes a ground bounce, so if you have already affected the target by a ground bounce earlier in a combo, the super is wasted. Due to the way the balls drop, the amount that will actually strike the opponent is almost completely random - I’ve seen the move score less than 100k once before, and we’re not even talking at minimum scaling. There is a way to loop the move and negate the ground bounce portion by using a medium Henyko-Ki and then canceling that into Tenrai Ha, but it is a one-frame link that is very tough to pull off, especially online.

People that are unfamiliar with the character will go on about how Rimoukon, her “Gold Armor” mode is overpowered, especially when coupled with her Senpu Bu assist, but really, you are making it out to be worse than it actually is. Like Tron and Haggar’s assist, the move forces the opponent to play much more warily lest they get caught by it, but it is very punishable, especially if you have the right super ready to go. Since the mode only lasts 5 seconds, if you snap her in it’ll be basically gone once she’s able to even raw tag out. Also keep in mind that if you manage to take out their other two characters, they’ll be forced to use Hsien-Ko on point, which as I’ve pointed out is a chore in and of itself. Tron and Haggar might be somewhat limited in their point options, but at least their specials aren’t unreliable, and they both have jumping normals that cause ground bounces which at least make their approach somewhat threatening and can lead to major damage.

The only thing that is scary about Hsien-Ko is that you might actually have to use her.

Finally, allow me to say that I personally find it insulting that popular characters such as Dr. Doom and Taskmaster would receive buffs, while unpopular characters such as Hsien-Ko, Thor and Haggar receive no significant improvements whatsoever. I also find sad that Capcom was able to think outside the box so much with their improvements to Ryu, but Morrigan simply gets a gimmicky meter-stealing fireball and Felicia just gets a move returned to her that she already had in MvC2.

Bleh. With just under two months left until UMvC3 releases, my hope for significant changes to Hsien-Ko dwindles with each passing day. :frowning:

13719

Why does everyone believe these stupid rumors? Supers do NOT scale .5 off of throws. It’s NOT a glitch.

13720

Saying “can’t manage” is giving them too much. With the amount of weak shit in her toolkit it seems more likely that she was intentionally made bad.