y’all must not be gamers if you can’t even recognize one genre from the next. I think you need to look at yourselves, the games out there, do some research, deep thinking, journalism, and so forth so you can tell these genres apart. The most skillful fighter out there is Tekken to stay on topic.
kinnikuman generations…enuff said.
Quiet, smasher.
If you want to actually talk about this like adults; Smash is a fighter at its core. The gameplay comprises of multiple player controlled characters fighting each other. The roster of characters each utilize a fully realized moveset in a fully realized system to facilitate those mechanics. Done. It’s not a mish-mash of whimsical gameplay varieties, randomized from moment to moment - like Mario Party. It’s like you people think that the “Fighting Game” label is some type of holy grail achievement. Get over yourselves.
If you want to be mindless slaves to corporate marketing; fine. It’s a “party game” because Nintendo spoon fed you a label on a box.
“Party Game” is a marketing construct, that can be applied to any kind of game willing to be marketed in that fashion. Capcom could easily attempt to market Street Fighter 4 as a party game (and would probably be better off for it). Sure, you can develop game mechanics to more fully realize the party game label (Mario Party), but if Capcom wanted to, they could simply change the nature of the tv spots, for i.e. (emphasize the multiplayer by having a couch full of young people bouncing around retardedly similar to Wii ads. What, it’s only two players? That’s not party game enough? The official standard decreed by the party game Gods is four players? Let’s emphasize Tournament and Team Battle modes! Fun for everyone!). Whether this marketing approach could work for SF is another thing.
You can pull the “Final Destination Only” meme as some kind of argument if you want, but unless you’re looking to troll the community, it means nothing. As anyone that plays fighting games competitively, the competitive Smash community prefers to have skill being as much of an influence as possible in the outcome of a match - that means mitigating the influences of any forces outside that, within reason. Yes, Melee was developed with “Party Game” trappings in mind, such as random items, and moving stages; but that does not change the fact that the core mechanics are that of a fighting game. If items and stages are what make Melee a “Party Game”, then it’s more a poorly realized party game than it is a fighting game (in comparison to a game like… Mario Party).
Having to go the options menu before a tournament is simply what makes it different from traditional fighters, not worthy of ridicule and ostracism. How does having to go to the Options Menu change the fact that the core gameplay still revolves around 2 (or more) player controlled characters with movesets built around the sole purpose of attacking another player controlled character? Nothing.
Hey, those two players banned Volcano stage. Street Fighter 4 is not a fighter!
Let’s stop being silly, anonymous teenagers. You don’t have to like Smash, but it is a fighting game series.
Now speaking of Melee, is it worthy of the respect of the traditional fighting game community? That’s a legitimate and debatable question (and is really what you’re trying to rebut, whenever you exclaim “Smash is not a fighter; it’s a Party Game”). Obviously, I offer a resounding “Yes” and challenge anyone to explain what Melee lacks as a respectable, competitive fighting game, if anything. This is the part where you should be formulating questions, because I’m positive hardly anyone posting in here knows anything regarding the game’s mechanics.
Making the arguement that smash is a fighting is like arguing that Mario Kart,Starcraft, or most shooters is a fighting game. Both have competitive elements, but were not the original design intentions that fit within the '2D/3D competitive Fighting" Genre.
VF for most skill based game /thread
I walked into a Smash tournament and beat everyone there (self-proclaimed ‘hardcore Smash players’!) with Peach then left. It was only my second time ever playing Smash (my first time was at a party).
@this thread: hot hands.
Did you read my post?
That’s just… stupid. Sorry to be rude. Where’s the fighting (pugilism) in Mario Kart? Where’s the fighting (pugilism) in Starcraft? Where’s the fighting (pugilism) in shooters? Sorry… but… STUPID.
Super Street Fighter Four is the bestest, most skill-based fighting game ever.
HAHAHAHA.
Who are you, and what tournament was this? We both live in FL, so we can arrange something. Make it worth my time, and I will drive to Tallahassee and you can show me this incredible Peach. Seriously. 450 dollars minimum MM. I have 6 years of competitive Melee experience and you have one tournament. That should be more than adequate a differential to dismiss Melee as a “party game” if you beat me. We’ll record the match, and post it on SRK. Just let me know in this thread, and we can iron out the details through PMs.
BTW, a few weeks back my roommates and I held a pool party. During the waning hours, we had an SF4 session on the big screen. Street Fighter 4 is a party game!
Idiot.
SynikaL, as much as I agree with like 100% of what you’ve been saying throughout this thread, isn’t it kind of wasted here? Dozens of people have tried making the same arguments you’re making right now, and they haven’t gotten through yet. Like you said, it’s their losses, so I say move on and let them be ignorant.
I know, and I’m one of the grandfathers of this argument on these boards, also. I chalk it up to a passion for the game (despite the fact I don’t play anymore). Seeing the game disrespected in a community with such a reputable legacy just rubs me harshly (and yes, I understand the scrubs responding aren’t part of that legacy, as much as they’d like to think they are through posturing on the internet).
Smash is damn legit. Why can’t we all just get along?
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7250/chunlihugginglucario.jpg
Oh god, you so mad. Six whole years of competitive Melee experience? Cool, baby’s first ‘fighter’. Can we play in Pokemon Stadium, that is my FAVORITE stage.
EDIT: Oh fuck, I missed that last part. Yeah, SF4 is a party game. Enjoy your prize for winning…whatever this was!
Nice, logical rebuttal.
Do you want to play, or not?
Okay, but only if you beat me in a REAL fighting game first.
(Goldeneye N64, slappers only, no body armor, first to five. $300 money match minimum, bet it.)
I dunno but if you hear someone dismissing a game as not skill based, chances are they have no skill at the game.
Welcome to my ignore list. If you want to take my challenge seriously, you can PM me. Don’t see why anyone would turn down a chance to win 450 dollars.
i always find these verbal sparring matches interesting. While i agree, the game’s a fighter, fundamentally, I’ll say it’s not a ‘good’ one, or worth competitive training, because it’s character roster is not balanced at all. Melee was nearly all Fox users, Brawl all Metaknight users, cause everyone else was significantly weaker at competitive-level play. It wasn’t built as a competitive fighter, and so I doubt that will ever get fixed by the game devs.
I also don’t enjoy how you have to boil away so much of the content of the game to remove the chance element from interfering with the skill element. As the game gets older, they’ve even added un-removable chance elements to the game, like slipping.
Furthermore, character move sets are very shallow, and while they vary heavily in other respects (weight, jump, grab, speed), it hinders what you can and can’t do with the game. These variations also become much smaller when the tier list becomes so bottom heavy, ruling out many characters from being viable choices.
Oh god, your ignore list. Someone tell him that I am leaving this site for good now. 
(I live in a college town and deal with enough pretentious and annoying children as it is. $450 is not worth dealing with an extra one on a personal level.)
Although it was mostly in a trolling aspect, using Goldeneye “slappers only” is a decent example. Strip away all the elements of the game until it’s as close to a normalized fighting game as you can get (even though it’s an extreme comparison), and then state that it’s incredibly deep? Look, I’ve seen what smashers call ‘advanced techs’, all the wavedashing and sparking around and shit. You have to go OUT OF YOUR WAY to get even close to a ‘fighting’ game; fuck that, just play Street Fighter.
Brawl, I won’t comment on. It’s almost universally considered trash, competitively, except among newer competitive Smash players that cut their teeth on that game.
Your statement that high-level Melee is all Fox users is flat out false. The principle you’re attempting to express - the game only having a handful of viable characters at the highest of levels - is as true for Melee as any other fighting game that has ever been played competitively.
Fox, Falco, Jiggly, Marth, Ganon, Peach, Falcon, Sheik. That’s 8 viable tournament characters which is damn good for a game that’s been intensely competitive for almost 9 years. The lower tiers show up constantly, as the game is still evolving.
You’re right, Melee may not have been developed with competitive play in mind (which was no different from most games back then. Let’s recognize that developers actually paying attention to competitive scenes is a relatively new phenomenon), but ultimately, this doesn’t matter. The gameplay was built with depth, complexity and most importantly integrity. This is why it became competitive. The game probably has the most integral defensive system in fighting games today, and is, ironically, very fast and offensive. I don’t think any other fighting game series outside GG can boast an accomplishment like that.
Again, not commenting on Brawl.
As for Melee; please refer back to my post on the last page explaining why this is irrelevant. Just use your intellect and rationalize how much this ultimately does not matter. If you simply don’t like the phenomenon, that’s fine. However I’d say you’re being petty to hate a game for giving you a wealth of options in an effort to cater to your gameplay desires and preferences (such as, say, if you want to make the game ‘feel’ more competitive).
The movesets are hardly shallow in comparison to convention. Each character in Melee has at least as many moves as a SF4 character with at least as many uses for each one.