Uhhh… anyone with a good zoning game…? Or do you not know what the term ‘zoning’ is? It goes all the way back to classic ST. Use fireballs to force an opponent to jump and punish with uppercut. Not only that, fireballs are used in footsies as well because (depending the on the character), they are great footsie tools. They’re pretty much mid ranged pokes (see: Daigo). Why else do you think Ryu [for example] is a strong character? He has a strong footsie game up close and and can use his projectiles to out poke any character from mid range. If it was Ken in Vanilla, that would be a differnet story, but even his fireball game is strong now.
As far as “baits” go, fireballs are just as easy to bait as divekicks. It all comes down to who controls range/plays footsie better at mid range. If your divekicks are “easily” getting punished, that means you’re getting worked. Simple as that.
LOL at “nobody good.” Watch the matches with Daigo and Kura again please. Juri is a fireball character at mid range and a read lk/mk fireball are easily punished with a jump in. If you read a jump, her best punish is to go for j.mp instead of cr.hp/cr.mp. The latter is for reactionary AA’s. At least with U2, you have a way to land serious damage with one read jump during footsies. And it doesn’t have to be a read jump, it can be used in any air to air situation (e.g. Rufus’ dive kicks).
Use up half your meter just to get a single guaranteed combo (that’s going to be ridiculously scaled, no less). In most situations, it’s not gonna be worth it. You’re better off saving the bar and finding a different time to activate FSE. Remember, Juri in FSE with no EX meter means she’s more at a disadvantage than anything. Imagine a strong Akuma player gets a sweep while you’re in FSE with no EX meter. You’re going to be wishing that timer went away faster (just making a point, since no sane Juri player would use FSE against Akuma anyway lol). Just saying.
Not to mention, that combo into U2 is guaranteed more damage than whatever combo you’re going to get off with U1.
Wrong. I just stated that it’s another [extreme] option. Besides, wake up Ultra is just as easy to bait as wake up SRK, crouch tech, etc. Moral of the story, if you’re getting baited, you’re getting worked. And if you ain’t getting meatied on wake up with no meter, than you aren’t playing anyone good.
Maybe FSE is great now but I see U2 becoming the viable Ultra as time goes on. FSE will best be used against characters who are free on wake up (Claw, Cody etc.). Otherwise, U2 is probably the better choice. It compliments Juri fireball game and the rest of her arsenal nicely.
First of all, no need to be insulting. If I’m wrong, just make your case and keep the 'tude in check.
The entire point to this discussion is to swap ideas and compare opinions.
Daigo mostly uses cr.mk to throw out FBs, and he rarely throws them out when he knows there’s a chance that he can be punished. For example, when he confronted Wong’s Fei in Vanilla, Wong quickly showed that he knew the exact spacing to punish any FB Daigo threw as a footsie tool. Daigo continued to throw them out at different spaces, until he knew exactly what distance he needed.
For example: Daigo vs Kuraudokin. I think that actually makes my argument for me very well. Daigo almost never throws out a fireball in that matchup unless Juri is A) at a far enough distance that EX Dive Kick isn’t a viable punish or B) he uses it at the end of a dive string. I watched them play, and not once did I see Daigo just throw out a random FB that came even close to being punishable, let alone with EX Dive Kick.
Most FBs (aside from Guile and maybe Chun) can be punished at that range, so most players wouldn’t throw out a FB at that range unless it was part of a blockstring. Juri isn’t much better, although her Release recovery is better than most projectiles. Also, Juri’s fireball game is only punishable with jump-ins if she’s predictable about it. In the match between Daigo and Kuraudokin, Kura was actually able to STOP one of Daigo’s jumpins with the Hold. I never saw Daigo punish one release, but maybe I wasn’t paying close enough attention. Bottom line, though, Juri isn’t that free to jump in on.
Moving along, when timed correctly, Rufus’s dive kick can come out faster than Juri can do j.mp. In fact, attempting to do j.mp in such a situation would guarantee lands dive kick to follow with the combo of his choice. But against any person, reading jumps isn’t always a good thing, because YOU can be baited just as easily.
Decent FSE combos average 100 to 300 damage. That ain’t no chump change. Also, add into the fact that any move which recovers slower than 4 frames leads into that sort of damage, and the fact that the person can keep this going for as long as the timer is active and they have initiative. FSE damage is nothing to sneeze at, so I don’t see the merit to that argument.
Also, Juri has extremely good tools for building meter BEFORE using FSE. She’s more than capable of having more than one EX bar before activating FSE. And since Juri typically wants to have an EX bar along with Ultra 2 anyway (not saying she NEEDS it, but she definitely wants it), I’d say that the situations are quite similar. In a nutshell, Juri is going to want to have an EX stock to go along with her Ultra at any given time.
That said, however, using EX ANYTHING against Akuma’s vortex is one hell of a risk. Every EX option Juri has only makes the damage worse if she guesses wrong.
At half-bar, it’s not that different. I was able to get about 300 points of damage using a very simple cr.lk xx cr.lp xx cr.mp cr.mk xx st.hk xx HK Pinwheel combo. A half-bar U2 from the same setup netted maybe 50 points more.
At full bar, you’re right. No question you get higher GUARANTEED damage. However, even at half-bar with U1, my pressure game remains devastating (because U1 is still active) while in U2, it’s just back to regular.
I agree partially, but all baits aren’t created equal. I’d MUCH rather be baited into a crouch tech than Ultra. It’s the difference between 13 punishable frames and 103.
i used to think u2 was better than u1. because its a 100% punish, j.mp >> u2. and the such that kouryuu has said and all his reasons hes stated and they are all true. cept the ex dive kick which is more of a 50/50 jump in gimmick(i find using it like vipers jump late burn kick but just ex dive and get the tech throw most ppl do the best option)
but, i think u1 might be the better one now after using it for few. this is because one hit leads to 300ish dmg. then you have a choice of getting them with a cross up, baiting a wake up reversal, or staying on the same side and hitting another 300 dmg combo. all for half a ultra meter, then on top of this chance of getting almost 700 dmg. if you cant hit then or get the 2nd combo you still build ultra meter as bigopinion stated. so you can back off and focus stuff or worst case you ate a reversal into there ulltra or a couple more hits.
having another ultra storing up while you are already in FSE is by far great cuz it forces them to fall back and think about what they wanna do or even get back into the corner where juri is strong at as is w/o ultra. but i dunno i still favor u2 atm.
either way tho imo, juri has to rely less on her ultra and more on everything else unlike alot of the cast that get easy dp >> ultras or easy raw ultra setups. so its always a uphill fight whatever way ppl go with
When her voice is set to JP, Juri says something when her tele-taunt counter move is successful that sounds to me like “ochi ochi!” (correct me if I’m wrong.) I’ve heard this phrase used multiple times in fighting games (seemingly only be females characters [Rachel in BB:CS, Morrigan in TvC and MVC2, and now Juri]) so I’m just wondering if anyone could tell me what it means in english? What is she saying, exactly?
When I made the post “see:Daigo,” I was referring to watch Daigo play in general. He isn’t just called “psychic” because of the Ume DP. To be good? to win, there times when you HAVE to take risks. This has always been the case.
Using fb’s in footsie range against Juri can be dangerous when she has an EX stock (and U2) but it’s still an option; an option that will be used if need be. If you get the read that your opponent is going to go for the risky fb, then you have a strong punish in EX dive kick > U2. Of course, using U2 doesn’t mean you’re going to be flying everywhere with EX dive kick, landing your Ultra nonstop, but it’s certainly a good punish.
But since you brought up Daigo vs Kura, I’ll just use their matches as an example. Just like you said, Daigo rarely (if at all) used a fb that was susceptible to a EX dick kick punish (of course, these are merely casuals online. I’m sure we can both agree that if they played in tournament offline, things would look different). Now, if he’s playing against a Juri, how willing do you think he’d be to risk shooting a fb in range of EX dive kick if the Juri player was using U2? Probably less likely than if his opponent was using U1. For some characters, U2 can be scarier than FSE.
And going with what you said, EX dive kick effectively shuts down a powerful footsie tool in majority of the cast.
I’m sure you see now what I mean by EX dive kick > U2 being a great fb punish tool.
Read above comment. It all comes down to being read. No matter how good someone is, everyone gets read. And it’s true, Kura did bait a jump from Daigo and stopped his jump in, but in that same video, Kura ate two jump ins in a row from Daigo for being predictable with fb release.
Of course. But when it comes to Juri vs Rufus, if Rufus wants to pressure (win), he’s going to be more susceptible to j.mp since dive kicks are his main way of getting in and… Rufus’ footsie game is ass. And even jb.EX dive kick can be a good tool to punish dive kicks in mid air (and EX dive kick > U2 if you have the meter).
In other words, jab punishable. Not likely to happen against someone good. Yeah, 100 to 300 damage sounds good but that’s all you’re going to get against many characters since Juri’s offensive game is lacking (even in FSE). Juri’s design is meant to be played as a zoning character, not pressure. Or rather, that?s the outcome of her character.
True, Juri can build meter fast (real fast) but her best EX move (EX fb) is something she’s going to need to use often to keep the momentum. Saving meter for FSE means you have to work REAL hard to keep the match in your favor until you have the Ultra to utilize it. And when it comes to activating FSE: read above comment. Juri is still Juri in FSE, sub par offense and terrible wake up.
No it doesn’t. Pressure and Juri don’t mix. I mean seriously, just watch Daigo vs Kura. What?s the most Kura was able to do with FSE? One combo simple combo per activate? Sounds real devastating lol.
Only time will tell.
Agreed. I hope FSE ends up being great but? only time will tell. The latest video I saw of Kura playing against Daigo, he was using U2. =\
U2’s setups in J.MP, EX Dive Kick, and Release FADC don’t seem reliable to me. I’ve never punished anyone with EX Dive Kick and have only been successful when I use it randomly. I hardly ever get release combos. J.MP is the most reliable but I feel like the only way to land with it is to fish for it.
I like FSE’s closing power. If they have 20% life, and you have enough to activate, one combo will kill them… and you’re the one in control of whether that will happen, instead of relying on a situation that may not happen. I like how it seems practical in every match. You can go several games without landing U2, but you can use FSE every round (if you have the meter).
The only problem I have with using FSE is if I miss my first attack sequence and they start running away. It’s really easy to get carried away and jump and dash relentlessly towards them and get punished for a mistake. If I miss, I try to calm down and advance behind EX fireballs and play safely, the meter usually lasts a lot longer than I initially realize and I can usually get at least one FSE combo.
My initial point, though, is that MOST characters will shut down a fireball game at the distance which Juri can punish with EX Dick Kick. At that range, most characters have some option that can punish a random FB, so people have been conditioned not to risk it. You’re right in that somebody is going to eventually take risks, but as I said in the matchup thread, that’s a yomi-dependant scenario. I personally don’t like relying upon that–if you’re read, you’re read. As you said, it happens to everybody, but when I’m developing theory fighting, I always prefer to assume that I’m playing a better opponent than myself.
Although, you may be right: it could be VERY matchup specific. I tested it last night, and the distance with which Juri can guarantee EX Dive Kick > Ultra against Ryu is a range at which Juri could also simply do a j.hk into any combo of her choosing (including both Ultras). At any other distance, the EX Dive Kick either whiffed (dangerous) or only two hits connected (waste of EX, IMO). Against Sagat, further ranges were more viable, but his projectiles were also faster, making it more difficult to react to.
So, based upon this observation, I didn’t find EX Dive Kick to be any better an option against projectiles than simply jumping in, and both Ultras have plenty of payoff for that.
Moving onto Rufus, he has plenty of means of getting in besides dive kick. And even then, as I said, his dive kick can come out at any point in his jump that he wants, and it has incredible startup and recovery. That’s not to mention that his j.HK has incredible priority and leads to far more consistent damage options than Juri’s j.mp.
Now, I’m not in any position to do a critique on Kura’s Juri, but there were plenty of mistakes he made that aren’t really a reflection on Juri’s options. For example, in his latest matches he rarely punished jump-ins with normals, he hardly used the frame advantage that a blocked or hit FB gives Juri, and his punishment wasn’t exactly the best.
Also, while you may snicker at only one FSE combo per activation, in his latest fights (with U2), I didn’t see him land the Ultra once.
Also, why did you shrug off the idea of gaining 4 frames of punishable frames in a fight, when you made a very passionate case earlier about how anyone can make a mistake, and that successful reads can happen to anyone? Those two points don’t seem compatible.
The Ultra system was to cover match ups so U1 and U2 have their uses.
Personally, I think U1 has more applications then simply looking for damage output. It can easily give momentum advantages and that alone is enough to warrant it’s use even if you don’t always land multiple combos. I can guarantee the activation of U1 at least once per round and even if I don’t land a big combo I can make pushes to my favor in momentum. The thing about U1 though is that you can’t always be aiming for the damage and doing risky things like going for the overhead because people just have to downblock and wait for the overhead then block or counter accordingly. Just don’t let landing a FSE combo consume you when the opponent is playing runaway.
U2’s only psychological advantage is don’t jump carelessly and watch out for dive kicks. Against OG people they don’t jump unless they absolutely have to and unless you have strong fundamentals then you landing U2 seems less likely. It’s more of a punishment Ultra or landing it in very specific circumstances. I don’t mind capitalizing on those opportunities but there are times where psychologically when you are desperate you will fish for random ultra 2 by doing unsafe dive kicks or trying to force the situation. It will often back fire on you and we saw this when Floe was fighting that Rog player at MWC. He was at a health disadvantage and tried to fish for the Ultra using EX Dive Kicks. Granted, I doubt he could have made a come back in that round but you get the idea.
Now U1 it is really only good for matches that the player doesn’t have a dp 2 frame jab or a spd or a good fireball range
u2 good for eveerything but best in fireball matches because you can punish fireballs with ex dk u2
Now U1 it is really only good for matches that the player doesn’t have a dp 2 frame jab or a spd or a good fireball range
u2 good for eveerything but best in fireball matches because you can punish fireballs with ex dk u2
Gotta agree with this, I’ve stopped using U2 exactly because of these points. Players I’ve been putting games in with Juri try jumping in and learn that it’ll get punished quickly…and then have the capability to stop, change their game up, adapt. It’s said you can do everything twice, the same goes for punishing jumps…and EX Dive Kick.
Arguing that U2 is better because of EX Dive Kick > U2 setup is a little presumptuous and I don’t think this thinking is gonna hold up in the long run. It assumes that your opponent won’t see it coming (like people have said, reading and being read) and is so heavily reliant on landing that it you’re forced to play more dangerously in desperation – if you see you’ve got it, you could potentially burn all your EX meter frantically trying to cheese a U2 setup out. This does not and more than likely will continue to not work against high-level players, especially those that know how Juri’s game works. If you fight somebody that knows Juri can EX Dive Kick into U2, they’re going to look for it. Always.
The more I learn about Juri the more I come back to what I originally said when I first picked her up – she works thanks to her unpredictability. The setups for U2 will, with enough time and enough practice, become predictable. U2 itself is highly conditional, plus carries with it the danger of coming right up on top of somebody you may have been avoiding all day because of how dangerous they are. Nobody knows what to expect from FSE simply because of what it is, and far better compliments Juri’s unpredictability than U2 ever could.
After pages and pages of comparison and debate, it sounds like there are two Ultras for a reason. Using one or the other will change your play style accordingly: U1 fits some peoples’ play style, U2 fits others. Juri’s such a versatile character, there will be arguments over how to best implement her because so much of her success rides on an individual’s play style.
It’s good that we’re evaluating the benefits and disadvantages of one over the other, but I think it’s a bit hasty and heavy-handed to insist one’s better than the other, especially at this point in time. IMO this may be the best evaluation so far:
U2 hinges all of your Ultra meter on one single attack. FSE hinges the damage output you get from an Ultra on your own skill. At the end of the day, U1 will always have the potential to do more damage than a whiffed U2. :lol:
On a completely random note, how freaking fast is Guile’s recovery from Sonic Hurricane?? I was about to fuharenjin the brushhead but I got beaten down instead! Daaaamn hiiiim…
You can’t punish him on block but if you aren’t doing anything during the Ultra flash just do EX Pinwheel. It has fireball invincibility and will beat out Sonic Hurricane.
As for the U1/U2 debate, U2 has psychological and game-changing aspects as well - good players will be wary of jumping in or jumping in general in case they’re hit with a j.mp, and the threat of an EX dive kick ought to restrain any riskier strategies, not to mention making fireball wars much more cautious. So FSE isn’t the only ultra to provide an indirect benefit besides the damage it can cause. I was playing a Vega the other night who was doing some crazy rushdown on me, but when I got ultra he backed off and kept trying to fake-drop me into using it. I fireballed him instead and didn’t bother using U2 at all, I’d already got my use out of it.
As I mentioned good players don’t jump unless they absolutely have to. The solid players know spacing and footsies so that can keep Juri out which is why you have to be on top of your footsie and zoning game to create that opportunity. Nobody is saying U2 doesn’t have its uses but it’s direct and indirect benefits are far and few between. It’ll be match up specific as well.
ok seems like everywhere there’s this ongoing dispute on U1/U2 amongst fellow juri users. lol.
guess i’ve been over trying to reason out why my choice of ultra is better with my fellow pals and
i think in the same light they have their reasons for why they think the other ultra is better.
its funny how whenever u play a juri mirror its not just a mirror but it feels more like an fse vs kd and a match to see which ultra > the other ultra.
anyhow, i prefer u2 (not implying that its better or anything, just my choice thats all) and cant help lovin’ it when mirror juri does the fse activation, and in anticipation of his jump-in in eagerness to launch the fse combo i j.mp, u2. GG!
alright, maybe someday someone can write a paper on fse/kd.
truth be told, i think the stats will speak for itself in time to come!
I just stick with U1. When activated, you don’t necessarily have to use it, just see how it effects the dynamics of the match. I might eventually go back to U2, but U1 has far more uses.
I juggle about the 2 ultras depending on my matchup.
Against Honda I usually run U2, why? Because I know that I can’t keep up with his cr.Jab at all, and in the heat of FB zoning, he will feel the pressure to jump or throw a random EX headbutt when I’m charging, then I just bait and punish. The concept of the Ultra hitting is nice and all, but I like knowing that Honda feels locked down.
Against a char reliant on spacing and footsies tools, I’ll run U1. Mainly because those players tend not to leave themselves open to eat U2, and they can take more risks without eating some big damage. Let’s say they jump, I’ll activate U1, anti-air, and move forward.
Just how I do, in no way do I think this is the correct way, but how I would generally juggle between the 2.
EDIT: Is there a list of character specific punishes on block? Or do I need to sit in training mode?