MK9 | "Where there is Smoke, There's FIRE!" Smoke genereal strategy and video comments

Current Fighting Games Mortal Kombat
81

I repect what you’re saying and yes any combos reduction is a hit to the depth of a character but im still a little confused here… how will a nerf that eliminates a bounce from an air throw effect hits in a match? The only way that I can see this ruining a gameplan is if your entire offense is geared towards OTG and that the the player doesn’t know any other combos. What I’m trying to say here is that either way you cut it, in order to pull of an OTG you need to be mid juggle anyway… and as we are all aware (or should be) smoke has a plethera of chain combo options after an inital starter… frankly if you’re not getting 31-42% combos from EVERY connected stike with smoke WITHOUT OTG connections you are not playing him right… From what I can see people are not adjusting their gameplans accordingly there are options other than an OTG smoke, such as:

Rushdown Smoke: Options of dash cancling IOT get close or a well timed Smoke Towards will set you up for 2, 1, smoke bomb, 3, down-1, 2, 3, 2, back+1, teleport (33%… if i remember correctly) or because of the fastest sweep in the game you can start with head game mix ups and set up a jump in 42% combo ORRRR you can 2, down-back into any other juggle you know.

Ranged Smoke: This is no a brainer… Smoke Away coupled with Shake and EX Shake make zoning impossible for anyone… use Smoke Away to mask Smoke Bomb and juggle whenever Smoke Bomb connects or wait for lazy jump in/telepot and punish/wait for lazy projectile Shake on reaction, block wake up if any, and punish.

I really don’t see how taking away a bounce from an air throw effects any of the above… unless I’m completely missing somthing here such as damage reduction nerf or taking the juggle Smoke Bomb away completly… if that is not the case then this is nowhere near as bad as nerfing a combo starter like Kung Lao Spin which is his main AA and best move in the game…

82

1.No-One said they are removing the ground bounce from his air-throw. that would be stupid since it would also effect the safety of the throw. More than likely they will just attach the same property to the throw thats already on the smoke bomb, so that the smoke bomb no longer otg’s them when it hits, just like when you smoke bomb someone for the second time in a combo.

2.It isnt at all hard to get 35% and up combos with smoke, (3,D+1,2,Dash,3,2,dash,F+4-XX-Telepunch is both stylish and effective, AND has room for more damage.) For a character who can turtle until the sun comes up, in a game this aggressive, that should be plenty of damage output.

3.I expect that B+2,3-XX-smoke bomb, will still work since its a cancel combo built into the game, not a true OTG. Its a fast high damage overhead that gives you nearly a full free combo of your choice on a character who already has the fastest sweep in the game… People need to stop leaning on their otg smoke bombs so hard, and realize that smoke has other goddamn tools, and some of them are fantastic.

83

I just explained that. Some hits (such as 3, D+1, 2) starters only lose 10% damage (which is still a lot). Others will lose as much as 25%. It’s a very big loss. His abare is roughly halved by the change.

Your opponent knowing combos has nothing to do with your offensive strategy. And you don’t gear your offense towards doing combos, you gear it towards what you will hit with without being punished.

That’s a ridiculous statement. I think you need to play more smoke, or just the game in general. Not every hit is going to lead to an auto-combo. Sometimes you just need to hit the opponent with an anti-air jump kick for 7% (14% in smoke’s case), and that won’t lead to an otg smoke bomb because the opponent is too high. Shake also doesn’t combo. It’s a hit that doesn’t lead to anything.

You’re still missing an important point. Smoke’s crossup jumpkick OS airthrow was one of the main reasons he was as good as he was. Unlike the rest of the cast with airthrows, he got 39% off of the jump kick hit. Now he’ll get 14%. There’s no way to up that damage post patch.

OTG smoke isn’t a gameplan, it’s just a combo option, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

You can’t abuse smoke towards like that. It’s better than most are giving it credit for, but eventually your opponent is going to realize that he can stick out a meaty to force you to block, and then you lost your pressure. You could try to cross up with it, but the range you need to start the move to do that is very dangerous.

You can’t get 42% anymore. Play online on an x-box. Smoke has had stealth patches to his proration, making his combo damage lower.

This doesn’t work. Smoke can’t play a purely ranged game because he can’t keep people out. Enemies can literally just walk up to him and he can’t do a thing about it (smoke bomb whiffs on a moving target). He can only play an anti-zone game. That’s very different.

Again, OTG bomb doesn’t take away any of his options. However, it does change the reward on his options significantly, losing between 20% to over 60% of his damage on certain options. That is going to affect matchups no question.

Again, one of Smoke’s primary strengths was how much reward he got off of a jump kick OS air throw. Other members of the cast can do it, but they get at most 16%, while Smoke gets 39%. Since it can be so safe, it was one of the big ways that smoke was set apart. Soon, that’ll be gone.

I think you need a bit more matchup experience against good players before you try to comment about how good smoke will be post nerf. It seems like you’re missing a lot of his options and are using tactics that work only against inexperienced players. There’s more to this game than damage off of standing normals.

84

OK What? How will nerfing an OTG air throw be an all around damage reduction? That makes no sense… 3, d+1, 2 is not an OTG… that is a launcher… the only way I can see this being devistating is if they scale down every smoke bomb linked combo… which is like all of them… i have no idea what abare means…

WTF!!! UHHHHH what MK9 are you playing? Yes you do gear your offense for combos or at least you should i.e what combos can I get off reaction from move X from player Y or what combo can I use to punish wiffed Kung Lao spin… “Gearing your hits towards what you don’t get punished on” is saying “what starter can I use to safley set up, say it with me now, A COMBO…”

Uh ya… pretty much every hit I land with smoke sets up a combo… every chain he has ends with stagger or has stagger in it which leads to a smoke bomb… EVERY ONE…you find a chain he has that YOU think doesn’t lead into combo starter and you let me know… You literally stated every instance I can think of in the above quote for a hit without combo… which is two defensive hits…literally…and shake is auto-pressure btw…

No… just no… this is what I’m talking about with ppl playing jk.OTG smoke… they bait until jump in and punish… and thats it… that is their plan… so yes it is a gameplan…and that is who is crying about the patch…

See above…

Ok what part of WELL TIMED Smoke towards did you not understand? I didn’t say abuse smoke towards until in position…

3, d+1, 2, EX Smoke Bomb, 3, 2, F+1, teleport (second punch from teleport WILL hit if done correctly) that is 39% add a JPS and ur at 42%… everytime… on XBOX… wtf is a stealth patch?

I would LOVE to play someone who just “walked in” I could A) Smoke towards IF CLOSE ENOUGH (you can’t hit me unless ur FPS on move are crazy fast) B) Smoke Away and Smoke Bomb… it will track you… try it… or my personnal fav… sweep, sweep, sweep or abuse teleport…

No, not a primary strength, nice addition… yes… good AA… yes… gonna completely change the way people match up… not even close…

I would LOVE to here what your tactics are… because apparently the best way to play as Smoke is to count on an AA JK all the time… and that using any of his other tools is nubish…

@Gandalfrockman

At least someone understands what I’m trying to say… I can see what ur talking about with the bounce and the saftey of the move but they could do a ground slide instead… like if you overhead JP somone three times…

85

Then you have no clue what we’re talking about. We’re talking about comboing a smoke bomb after an air throw. This shows up in almost all of his combos (the only ones that it doesnt are comboing off of B+2 and naked smoke bomb).

You’re not understanding what I’m saying. Sometimes you get a hit that can’t necessarily go into a full combo. Yes, you want to do combos, but you can’t always do them.

That’s where the concept of abare comes in. It represents the idea of how much damage you get off of any given hit in a match. It’s the average of all of your attack options.

Auto-combo ground chains shouldn’t be the only thing you’re landing on your opponent. If it is, then your opponents are very, very bad.

Again, you don’t play around your combo options. That’s not a style in the sense you’re talking about. OTGing a smoke bomb is just an option to get more damage off of something you’ve already hit with.

You pretty much never get that opportunity if your opponent is actually paying attention.

First off, you shouldn’t be wasting your meter on enhanced smoke bomb in that combo. The extra three percent or so isn’t worth wasting when it could be used to breaker, enhanced shake, etc.

NRS has stated that they have the ability to change moves even without downloading a patch. This has happened in Smoke’s case - the proration on his combos is worse.

I just tried the combo on an xbox hooked up to online. It does 35%, which is pretty bad considering it takes up 1 meter. Without meter it only does 32%.

You can get 37% with no meter and no OTG smoke bomb, but that’s still much worse than the 44% you get with it. And again, the lost damage here (which is a substantial amount) is far from the only way that the patch will affect him.

Again, smoke bomb whiffs if the opponent is in the full walk animation towards you. Block dashing also negates it. Smoke toward will force you to block a meaty. Those aren’t actual options against a decent player.

Cross up attacks are currently the safest and probably the most effective offensive tool. Smoke was particularly good because his cross up j.k OS air throw lead to a lot of damage. When it doesn’t lead to a lot of damage, it definitely changes things.

That’s far from the only way to do it. As I said, cross up j.k OS air throw is a very important part of his game. Without it he generally gets beaten in a battle between normals. That makes his offense significantly weaker. Even off of a 3, D+1, 2 combo, he loses plenty of damage without it.

Again, you’re showing that you don’t really understand what I’m saying. You’re so focused on landing 3, D+1, 2 that you don’t see the other places smoke’s damage is getting cut, and the cut is substantial there.

86

IT IS NOT IN ALL OF HIS COMBOS!!! Ok Fu*k it here you go: 1.) JP, B+1, smoke bomb, 3, 2, 3, D+1, 2, 2, 1, 4 (33%) 2.) 3, D+1, 2, 3, 2, 3, D+1, 2, 2, 1, 4 (33%) 3.) 2, 1, smoke bomb, 3, 2, 3, D+1, 2, JK, teleport (31%), 4.) 3, D+1, 2, smoke bomb, 3, 2, F+4, teleport (37%) 5.) B+2, 3, smoke bomb, 3, D+1, 2, JK, teleport (31%) 6.) (corner) 2, 1, 4, smoke bomb, 3, D+1, 2, 3, 2, 2, 1, 4 (37%)… From these six combos I can do another 10 different variations that do not have OTG air throw… not just the ones who are comboing of of B+2… and these are my lowest hitting combos… don’t want to share all my secrets lol :wink:

The only time this happens is if you pick the wrong juggle launcher for a punish I.E punish blocked Millena roll with 2, 1, smoke bomb and it will fail… but use 3, D+1, 2 and you can launch into a combo… I understand what you are saying I’m just not agreeing with you.

Ahhh I see never heard that term before… thanks…

Please, my good sir, tell me another way to start a combo without using a FORM of an auto-combo… form meaning modded auto-combos such as 2, 1, smoke bomb

What? That is a range and timing move… if you are say 3 feet from smoke and I start up a Smoke Towards you will wiff any move you try and react with… the only way to counter that is to guess a smoke towards and either A.) Wiff because I didn’t smoke towards or B.) Hit me when I’m in Smoke cloud… its has nothing to do with paying attention… its a matter of guessing right…

I agree, the only reason I got in the habit of using EX smoke bomb is because of lag… offline I never use it…

Hmmm interesting… I’m assuming IOT do this you must be playing a ranked match to see the diff in damage… because they cannot adjust my offline game without a patch… also can you provide a link?

No, you didn’t, because I screwed up the string it is really: Jp, 3, D+1, 2, EX Smoke Bomb, 3, 2, F+4, teleport… that will give you 42% I screwed up and put B+1…

A jk air throw OTG smoke bomb IS NOT A CROSS UP… i understand this is taking away some of his combos… but all it is effecting is a mid combo link to another string in a combo… thats it…

Please tell me how you can OTG smoke bomb without being mid combo… other than getting REALLY lucky with an AA low enough…

87

NO KIDDING!!!

I’m not saying that all of his combos use it. I’m saying the combos off of starters that could use it and don’t do less damage. 44% without jump punch is the magic number, and nothing you listed reaches that.

Yes, but punishing isn’t the only way you get damage in this game. There are other moves you need to hit with besides standing 3.

No, you really don’t.

I’m not saying you can’t use autocombos in combos. I’m saying you’re not always going to start a combo with standing 3. For the millionth time, one of smoke’s major perks was that he could start a big combo with a jump kick, but that will be gone after the patch.

They whiff, but then they continue the combo so that it comes out as you get out of the cloud. You have to block that. If you’re doing it from a range that crosses up, they can hit you out of the startup.

The problem is that changes will not be applied if you’re offline, even if you’ve received them in the past. You need to keep your xbox connected to the internet at all times.

Look at early combo videos and try the combos yourself and you’ll see the discrepancy.

The way I noticed was Smoke’s otg smoke bomb bnb used to do 48%, and now it’s down to 44%.

Which does 36% without meter (which you admitted you shouldn’t be doing) and without the jump punch starter. Again, I said Smoke still has bnbs that hit 37%. They’re all still less than 44%.

With the same rules applied (1 meter and jump punch starter), it’s at 51%. Still the same discrepency.

…Are you serious? You cross up with a jump kick by crossing up with it. Jump over the opponent and jump kick. It’s an effective tactic because it messes up the opponents controls so that they can’t do an anti-air special easily. It also gives you a lot of advantage on block.

Again, as I explained several times over, the OTG smoke bomb is a combo extender. It is not a tactic in and of itself, but removing it causes many options to be of substantially less value because the reward is lower.

If you mean how do you do it outside of a 3, D+1, 2 launcher bnb, as I said, you can hit a grounded opponent with jump kick and combo into air throw into OTG smoke bomb, which is a powerful option for smoke.

Before you reply again, ask yourself what exactly you’re trying to argue. Are you trying to say that removing OTG smoke bomb isn’t a nerf? Are you trying to say that it isn’t a substantial nerf? Are you just trying to troll with a bunch of erroneous statements and bad arguments? I’m having a really hard time telling what your point is.

Also, for your next reply, make sure you really understand what I’m saying before replying to it. You’re making yourself look really foolish by showing a lack of understanding of basic fighting game terminology. If you don’t know what I’m saying, then you can’t possibly respond to it appropriately.

I’m saying this as nicely as possible. I don’t take pleasure in making people look dumb. At the same time, it’s important to make sure the facts are straight, especially on a website like SRK. That’s why I’m asking you to please put more thought into your posts. If there’s no goal to your statement, if you don’t know what I’m talking about in your response, or if your statement isn’t properly founded on matchup experience against a half decent player, do yourself a favor and don’t post it.

88

OK you seem to have forgotten how this started. I said in a post that everyone needs to stop crying about OTG because Smoke has five other combos (that I know of) that get 39+ damage without OTG, two cross up launchers, and a plethera of other offensive tools. That is my point. Taking away a cross up (which is btw nowhere near the safest option) and combo extender is not the end of the world. Your point seams to be “It’s not just about maximum damage. It’s about how much damage you’re actually going to get from scoring hits in matches. The OTG nerf puts a serious dent in Smoke’s abare, specifically in a place that’s very important to his game. That’s why the nerf will hurt so much.” Which is exactly what I’m trying to say stop crying about… In your post you basicly said without the jk OTG smokes moves set is severly limited, and they are taking away the only powerful juggle option he has. So once again (and for the last time) I do understand you, I just dont agree with you. On a side note I would really like you to explain to me how pointing out other non-OTG combos, tactics that don’t lean on one cross-up, (which btw you were totally right about it being a cross-up, my bad), and styles of Smoke play are “erroneous statements and bad arguments” you my good sir seem to be the one trolling me.

89

OK, so you actually are saying that the nerf isn’t as detrimental to Smoke as we think. Well, pretty much every decent smoke disagrees with you. Many pros who used to use him are jumping ship. It also makes a lot of your statements irrelevant to your argument, but whatever.

Again, the cross up is not taken away. The reward off of the crossup is lessened by a substantial amount (by over 60%).

Wrong again. I said that the reward off of certain attacks is weakened, not that his move set is limited. His options remain the same, but the reward he gets from them is lessened, again in some cases very severely.

I also never said it’s the only juggle option he has. Any moron can look up his moveset and see that he has other launchers. The problem is that they’re unavailable in situations where the smoke bomb OTG is available.

You still clearly don’t.

I already explained this, but I’ll do it one final time.

You can’t always rely on landing a standing 3 to get a combo. It’s a slow move, so it’s liable to be out-prioritized by other normals (as many in this thread have had issue with). It’s also susceptible to wake up attacks if you do it meaty as your opponent is waking up. Cross up jump kick OS airthrow has none of these issues. It leads to roughly the same damage (5% less) and if blocked, you get an extra mixup attempt because of how much blockstun the jump kick causes.

Lowering the damage from this option IS a severe penalty to smoke. It also greatly lowers the reward off of an early jump kick for AA, making Smoke more prone to jump-ins.

Saying that the nerf merely results in 7% less damage is missing most of the damage that the nerf causes. You’re just dismissing the other areas where the nerf causes damage to smoke’s game, mostly because you don’t understand them despite me explaining them to you in a fairly detailed manner.

90

You are the most passive agressive fu*k I have ever spoken to… but other than that… where are you getting this information? What Pro’s? So basicly what you are saying is I need to do what every other Tom Brady fan boy does?

You know what the fu*k I mean…

What?! Saying that the reward off of certain attacks is weakened IS saying that his move set is becoming limited (besause of the viability of said attacks)… based on risk/reward… as you say in the next sentence of that quote…

Your entire stratagy seams to revolve around using OTG to establish an AA (which, omg, would make it a gameplan)… Yes, any idiot can look up his moveset BUT any idiot can simply write off the rest of his tools becasue there is an easier way to start a juggle and establish an AA…

Yes, I do, you think nerfing JK OTG is terrible, I don’t… plain and simple…

I have no idea where you keep getting that I am relying entirly on standing 3… I have listed four other moves that are viable launchers/starters and I know of three more… To be honest I almost never use standing 3… except in middle of juggle of course…

It makes him as prone as everyone else (except for kung lao and baraka)… you seem to be forgeting that a simple JK teleport is still an AA that resets in smokes favor… yes not as nice as a 39% but still effective non the less… Also on a lighter note PSN just came back up 10 sec ago… please tell me you have a PSN ID so we can play…

91

I already explained every point you raised several times. If you still don’t see how drastically reducing the reward on several important options isn’t a very substantial nerf, it’s on you to figure it out from here. Or you can continue throwing a fit if you want, whatever.

Everyone else reading can clearly tell that you don’t have a clue at this point. That was my primary goal (as convincing someone as stubborn as you is pointless), so I can comfortably leave it at that.

92

All you have shown is your lack of understanding for the depth of smoke… in that a nerf of the OTG is enough to get you to jump ship…

93

Nerd Josh said earlier in the stream chat that he’s ditching him post patch. Markman (the only top 16 smoke at nationals, most people think he’s not particularly amazing even pre-nerf) just tweeted me saying that he’s gonna switch to Shang Tsung. Aris ditched him long ago.

Everyone who’s decent realizes how bad it is and is at least thinking about leaving, if not already training a new main. I’m being pretty open minded in giving him a chance post nerf, but I think that’ll be a mistake. I think I should be working on a new character.

94

So wait, are they taking away 3, c.1, dash, 3, c.1 smoke bomb?

95

No, the combo link they’re discussing is air throw > OTG smoke bomb.

96

im not sure removing otg is going to make a giant difference.

that being said i didnt think smoke was that good with the otg, so i can understand how it being removed could make someone feel slighted

97

Surely they have to realize the size of this nerf. Even if he has other options, this was the one that really set him apart. I have trouble seeing how they could rationalize such a massive thing without any buffing compensation. Smoke is by far my favorite character. Do you guys think he’ll stand any chance of being in the upper echelons post-patch? I need some hope!

98

I personally think he’ll be fine. I’ve been messing around with him a lot lately and think he has some nice advantages that a lot of people seem to neglect, like shake and his back & forth smoke teleport. All I ever see online is punch teleport and smoke bomb no use of shake or smoke teleport. I think Smoke might have some frame traps he can take advantage of in the close range department as well but I haven’t had enough time to verify things with a partner.

Smoke is a very unique character but a lot of people play him like a watered down scorpion, the longer the game is out the better smoke will be IMO.

99

Most people play the ninja characters full herp derp auto pilot mode. But he is right good smoke players do use the shake and the teleport or even the punch teleport whiff over your opponents head to add some pressure. Taking away his otg is wack. Kung Lao has two anti airs alone that lead into big damage if anything they should nerf the damage the combo does and not the otg.

100

Smoke has received an update. The otg smoke bomb is still in (!), but damage scales worse after an air throw. His bnb that used to do 44% now does 42%, and his combo starting with j.k now does 38% instead of 39%.

Hopefully that means they’ll leave the otg bomb in, but it’s hard to say. This wasn’t a full patch.