I’d put Liu Kang up a couple levels on my personal list. He’s very versatile.
Move up: Liu Kang, Kitana, Sindel, Kano, Nightwolf, Johnny Cage, Cyber Sub
Move down: Freddy (no wakeup game whatsoever), Rain (no mixups at all)
Include: Sub Zero. Where the hell is he? lol I’d say A or B.
And substitute that ? for a letter D. Then you’re fine IMHO.
I’ve gotta say, this is list is pretty insane. Also, you have Cage listed twice.
Kratos get’s a bad rap, but he’s easily at least on the level of Sheeva. Personally, I’d rank him higher than her.
Where is Baraka?
Hypnotic Disciple
The current top tier characters are something as follows.
- Kung Lao
- Kabal
- Raiden
- Reptile
- Cyrax
- Freddy
- Kitana
- Skarlet
I don’t know why people insist on saying Freddy is top tier.
He has NO wakeup other than a non-invincible dash and normal (bad) or EX (slightly better) Hell Spike, but any relatively late jump ins will make the wakeup Spikes miss. He is so easy to corner once you pressure him. He does not have good armored moves (and I believe only one of his EX moves actually has armor).
Sure, he can do 60+% corner combos with a single bar. He also has no pressuring ability other than trying for Sweet Dreams. That’s why I can’t with a good conscience place Freddy at S tier. He is A tier at most.
Someone who has better pressure and infinitely better blockstrings, usable meterless wakeups and a decent armored move deserves to be put in top tier. None of which Freddy has.
I’m just gonna throw this out there and not back it up with anything other than its obvious truth: Johnny Cage is, bar none, the best character in the game.
Freddy is the best zoning character in the game. He is the only character who has fireball traps. Check out this post for more information. It seems to me like you are not very familiar with the character whatsoever.
Freddy has a safe 50/50 mix up from a jumping punch that leads to half life combos with the use of one bar. No other character has something even remotely as powerful. As far as pressure goes, he has f+4,2,1 which is a hit confirmable string that is safe against all characters but Kung Lao and Reptile. He has EX teleport and EX sweat dreams as wake up attacks. If he had a wake up attack that required no use of meter, he would be Dhalsim with an SRK.
Any Street Fighter player should have the basic knowledge to zone effectively with Freddy. If your opponent is constantly in your face, you are doing something very, very wrong. Only Kung Lao and Reptile are Freddy’s difficult match ups. He can overwhelm every other character with his zoning or his 50/50 mix ups that lead to half life combos.
Yet most of the already top tier cast can get around Freddy’s zoning. Anyone with a teleport, armored move or aerial mobility can get around this fireball trap.
I’ve known of those fireball traps from day 1. And I’ve played him nonstop, rarely ever losing (and not to Reptiles or Kung Laos). He’s good, but not top tier. No wakeup without bar still puts him below top. Anyone with a remotely good armored wakeup can stop his projectile shenanigans. Hell, Smoke can punish a Claw with a teleport and dash in. Smoke can also shake anything not named Hell Spike and instantly gain a whole screen’s worth of ground. How is it that you say that ONLY Kung Lao and Reptile are bad matchups? Noob can spam a knockdown clone, and on reaction punish Claw with a teleport.
And f+4, 2, 1 may not be punishable ONLINE, but I assure you it’s punishable offline. If you want to add someone to the list of people that can also punish it add Kitana and her mashing of d+1. Or basically almost anyone with a fast d+1. The only real way to prevent retaliation is to cancel into Sweet Dreams after a blocked string to make the opponent not want to move but this doesn’t work reliably either, especially if you’re predictable and end up eating a combo from any combo strings that move the opponent from below the sleeping booger.
If the opponent is constantly in your face, it’s because they’re doing crossup punches, which Freddy cannot avoid except with well-timed crouching attacks. Anyone with any remotely good pressure or mobility can destroy Freddy. This equals the entire top tier in this game.
You say I’m not familiar with the character, but I’m all too familiar with the character. There’s zero doubt that he is the absolute best zoning character in the game. I’m not arguing that because that is a losing argument. Sweet Dreams alone makes projectile wars one sided. When he can outzone and outspam Noob, it speaks volumes. However, the projectile trap is easily voidable by crouching and not blocking, and anyone with a teleport, armored move, good wakeup or aerial mobility (for example, Kung Lao or Cyber Sub’s full screen dive kick punishes) gives him a headache. I just have a hard time believing that just because he can spam better than the rest, then suddenly he’s considered top tier.
Wakeups, pressure, mixups, footsies, zoning… a lot of things go into what makes a character top tier. And if a character is lacking severely in one or more of those areas, it does make a difference, especially against the top tier who are actually able to do all of these things effectively. It’s not just that Freddy is not good at pressuring (he can, but others are much better) or that he has weak wakeups (other than wasting EX or cornering yourself) or that his normals are slow… it’s all of it. Sure, he can do 65% corner combos with 1 bar, even online (I have since day 1) but for all we know that may be going away in a patch. Then what’s his call to fame? Spamming fireballs? Does this even work against Raiden, Kung Lao, Reptile, Mileena, Kitana, Liu Kang/Sindel (Low fireballs make the opponent crouch under, stuffing attempts at Far Spikes), Smoke, Scorpion, Nightwolf (EX Shoulder Rush can punish Far Spike and absorb everything), Johnny Cage (EX Shadow Kick for the same reason, then enjoy being pressured to death), Cyrax/Sektor (teleports), Cyber Sub Zero (far dive kicks can only be predicted if you wish to punish them with dash back, Close Claw), Kabal or Kano? Because every single one of these characters has a way around Freddy’s spamming. None of them are new technology; we’re talking everyday things people have seen since day 1, among some others that are results of patches, like EX armor moves.
Then again tiers are mostly opinions. But they are opinions based on facts and practice.
You have entirely missed the point of my previous post and you obviously have not checked out the link that I provided. How can you compare Smoke to Kung Lao and Reptile? Kung Lao and Reptile have the ability to close the gap quickly and apply constant up close pressure that Smoke wishes he could apply. Kung Lao and Reptile also have access to the fastest special moves that punish Freddy’s f+4,2,1 and therefore limit his offensive game. Smoke, on the other hand, cannot limit Freddy’s offensive game in such a manner.
You have to recognize who your opponent is and adapt accordingly. If I am fighting Smoke, I have to take a more aggressive approach for very obvious reasons. In other words, I am sticking to f+4,2,1 and 50/50 mix ups. If I am zoning, I am only using ground spikes because Smoke cannot pary them.
Have you ever fought Noob using Freddy? Noob does not beat Freddy in a projectile war. First of all, Freddy’s glove toss (9%) does more damage than Noob’s tackle (8%). Second of all, Freddy can always react to a tackle and perform an EX ground spike, take the hit from the tackle, backroll, and still follow up with an attack of his own anywhere on the screen. Finally, punishing ground spikes with Noob’s teleport is extremely difficult. The teleport is too slow and Noob dives into the ground where the spikes come from. Besides, Freddy lowers his character hitbox a lot while he is doing and recovering from a ground spike. The point is Noob is not grabbing Freddy.
There is no reason to cancel into sweet dreams. f+4,2,1~teleport away or f+4,2,1~Nightmare Stance makes f+4,2,1 safe against many characters.
Cross up punches can be avoided by jump back punch which is a universal anti-cross up punch strategy. You then get to combo with f+4,2,1. Just dash before hand.
Re-read the link that I directed you to. The projectile trap starts when your opponent is on the ground. Most characters have to block while they are grounded or ground spikes hit.
Freddy’s up close and mix up game is very good for a zoning based character. Stryker, Sindel, and Noob players wish that their characters had access to the same tools.
As far as specific character strategies go, this is neither the place nor the time, but I can go into some match ups quickly.
Vs. Raiden. Zoning is useless. Bait a teleport and start your offense. Raiden’s aerial defense is weak. Jump in with a punch and go for the mix ups and big combos.
Vs. Johnny Cage. EX Shadow does 12% of damage (Freddy’s glove toss does 9%) and leaves you nowhere near Cage unless you are in corners. Not a bad trade for Freddy at all. Freddy wins this match up 6:4 unless he gets cornered. Then he dies in seconds.
Vs. Cyrax. The teleport is a non-issue because glove toss has a great recovery. If Freddy stays away from corners and watches out for the dreaded net, he does fine.
Vs. Cyber Sub Zero. Far dive kicks can be baited. Unless spaced perfectly, they are punishable by medium ground spikes.
If you want to talk in more detail, contact me on AIM (m2dave cro cool). I am not a fan of these long posts. LOL.
Well first, if you have to BAIT something, that’s not a useful strategy (about Cyber Sub). Depending on someone else to do something is never a good strategy. Additionally, the timing between a regular jump and either dive kick is so different that trying to punish either one with the Hell Spike timing (and spacing) of the other will not work. Plus he has a teleport to completely close the gap, grounding him midjump if necessary.
Add Mileena to that list of characters who can get around this. Her ground roll is fast enough to reach less than midscreen range on wakeup, when it’s invincible to spikes. Teleport is not, because obviously she goes down to do that lol And if you’re full screen, the roll will not hit, so she will have simply closed an enormous gap, passing through a single projectile.
About Johnny, you’re forgetting the most important part about EX Shadow Kick: you’re on the ground and Johnny is one dash away from a mixup or crossup punch. You can try to predict if he’s going to a mixup and EX Spike, but a late jump will punish and send Freddy to the corner undoubtedly. Remember how crap his wakeup game is? You need to keep those EX bars if you ever want to see the outside of a corner.
Cyrax’s teleport is slow, but again you’re forgetting the important parts: 1) he can do it in the air jumping the claw, when you’re ready to do a medium claw, 2) it will close the gap completely. Meaning you’ll find yourself having to teleport back, amind bombs and nets. Net on wakeup is also projectile invincible, breaking the trap and forcing you to block.
Smoke may be not as good, but he can get out of any traps with a teleport on wakeup. Obviously at one point you’ll expect it, but by doing that you’re not applying the projectile pressure you should. Additionally jumping forward, he can teleport while you attempt the medium claw, and while you’ll recover you will not be able to punish him severely for whiffing the air teleport.
Now about Noob, oh yeah he’s free to Freddy. But the point is because his teleport goes up (as opposed to Stryker/Mileena’s which goes down), he can avoid Hell Spike traps on wakeup. I’m not saying it’s not an uphill battle, because it is. But my point is all of Freddy’s worst matchups are in the top tier, and the reasoning involves pressure, mixups and other things that Freddy can’t really deal with. I’m not saying Freddy is B or less tier, but having so many bad matchups on S tier sort of lands him short of it.
I’m only really working on him so much because I need someone who can fare better against Skarlet’s bad matchups, but I do think he is pretty good. Just hard to get around the current top tiers.
Uhm…
Sure, you can put them in a situation where it would seem advantageous to use the desired move, but if they never use it knowing you’ll retaliate, you don’t get anything out of it. Additionally, specifically in the case of Cyber Sub, he can choose to do either dive kick, and there’s no way to predict which one he will use. Each dive kick has a different range. From different distances, each is punished by a different move. Additionally, since the trap involves forcing a jump forward and punishing with Hell Spike and move them back, not being able to hit the correct spike sort of defeats the purpose.
After some reevaluation, I’d like to say that, imho, this is one of very few fighting games where I think that any character can be viable in the right hands. In other words, tiers in MK9 are kinda hard. Hell, the list I had right there was thrown together in under 3 minutes of thought, which was as I wrote it.
Are some characters better than others? Of course. Is the gap from top to bottom tier that bad? Not neccessarily.
I generally play “mid-tier” characters, but I have lost to amazing Sheevas, Barakas, etc.
I’ll be frank though, Perfect Legend did not deserve to win EVO imo. REO is not only a great Mileena (one of few that don’t annoy me), but it was Kung Lao. Everyone whines about KL, but he really is one of the easier characters to play in the game.
Enough of my idiotic thoughts, I just wanted to throw that out there.
I was referring more to the general “baiting is a bad strategy” comment.
Not to be a dick, but he deserved to win because he did. And as you said, there isn’t that huge of a difference between high and bottom tier characters in MK anyway.
I kind of see what you mean about the tiers.
I’ve played excellent Jax’s, Baraka’s and Quan Chi’s. However, the difference between the tiers lies mostly in what they can do best.
- Is the character good at zoning?
- Does the character have decently safe blockstrings?
- Does the character have good mid/low mixups?
- Does the character have mobility of any kind (teleports, dashing moves, rolls, strings that push the opponent into the corner)?
- Does the character require EX meter to be constantly used?
- Does the character do good damage with simple combos?
- Can the character easily mixup throws during blockstrings?
- Does the character have armored or invincible EX/wakeup moves?
- Does the character have a meterless anti-air or way to avoid/punish crossup punches or aerial approaches?
If I’m missing something, let me know. But if you can answer yes to most of these (and no to #5) not only is your character top tier, but he is also Kung Lao lol Nah, j/k. But seriously I look at all these things when considering a top tier.
Let’s analyze Mileena using my list. Zoning? Yes. Blockstrings? Counting her u+4 as one, heck yes. Good high/low mixups? That woman was MADE for that shit. Mobility? Maybe too much. EX meter necessary? Not so much, although in some matchups EX teleport is required to move in. But not constantly. Good damage with simple combos? NO, that woman does good damage only if you bend over backwards. Mix up throws? Not off of safe blockstrings, since u+4 pushes back, for example. Invincible/armored wakeups? Teleport is on startup, but it can be easily avoided. Roll is great also, but punishable. Meterless anti-air? Teleport, u+4, Sai, d+4 to avoid crossup punches. So using that analysis I’d place Mileena as a solid A tier.
Of course even using this rubric is not sure science. The answer to 8 changed for a lot of people last balance patch. Also, range, speed and priority of normals should be considered. So maybe a #10 is in order.
[/qoute]Not to be a dick, but he deserved to win because he did. And as you said, there isn’t that huge of a difference between high and bottom tier characters in MK anyway.
[/quote]
Good point. I just wish 90% of MK9 tournaments weren’t won by a Kung Lao I guess. Someone who beats PL in a major tourney though would be rather epic.
Which reminds me, anyone see Crazy Dominican Jr win Summer Jam 5 with Rain/Jax? Good shit from him.
lol, mine are definitely not top tier then.
Hey, nothing wrong with that! Like I said in the edit, there are other factors like the range, speed and priority of all the moves. And in some weird situations, even the inputs matter. Cyber Sub players have a hard time dashing in for a kick without a bomb coming out, for example. This doesn’t REALLY affect a lot, but screwing up in a crucial moment can’t be good lol
Example: Jax is not top tier. BUT he has an insane reset trap using his overhead move and EX Ground pound. He has a nice invincible wakeup, and an armored EX move that knocks down. Does he then need to use EX often? Not REALLY. He has good, safe blockstrings, and a nice low combo starter. So it’s not exact science; it’s a starting point.
Another example: Skarlet is universally considered to be top tier (damn the community for making my main top tier lol). But why? Her strings aren’t too safe, she constantly needs EX if she wants to rush down, doesn’t have a meterless anti air or way to avoid crossup punches or aerial moves (and as a result is free on wakeup if she doesn’t have EX), so why the hell is she top tier? Because of her idiotic dagger cancels, which shut down anyone who doesn’t have mobility or armored moves. So as you can see, the rubric is just a guideline, really.
(Although I do urge people to try Skarlet as a rushdown character using the invincibility on the EX Dash coupled with the Slide or Down Slash into 40% resets!)
And to address why I consider baiting to be a bad strategy: it works sometimes (see Poongko vs. Daigo perfect), but as the game grows and people learn the matchup and how others will react to the matchup, there will come a time when the players will learn not to use certain obvious moves unless in a combo (see the 22-8 Daigo/Poongko series, where Daigo learns basically). This works in any fighting game. Why do you think Daigo pulled off that ridiculous parry of Chun-Li’s super in 3S (Evo moment #37)? He didn’t BAIT the super, he expected it. He HAD to have expected it; in order to parry the last hit the first parry has to be done immediately before the super activates. It’s a big difference strategy-wise. So it is always better to anticipate what the opponent is doing. If you want to nudge them to use the move, that is fine, but this won’t always work. For example, try baiting Perfect Legend into using a Dive Kick so you can block and punish. It’s a bad idea; he will purposefully whiff the kick, or approach using his strings instead. He will also not spin unless in a combo, knowing the spin is now extremely punishable offline.
I’m not saying it won’t ever work. But you can’t base your gameplay on it. You can’t base an entire matchup on trying to bait one move, because that severely limits your options. Which is why when told about the Cyber Sub matchup and how I could bait the dive kicks I mentioned that was a bad idea. Especially since the range/timing difference between both dive kicks and a regular jump are enough to make the Hell Spike that works for one not work for the other.
Definitely