Makoto Strategy and Match-ups

[Lost_Fragment]

-Random ex hayates probably aren’t a good idea against Vega. He can punish them pretty easily IIRC.
-Most Vegas like to throw after a blocked cosmic heel. Tsuguri that shit.
-Dash in after he sticks out cr.mps
-Jump at him when he doesn’t have charge.
-cr.mk stuffs cosmic heel from certain distances
-If he’s the sort that always does cr.mp after a blocked roll, you can get a counterhit st.hp
-And of course, he can’t use barcelona attack against you at all. Especially if you use U2.

[the_mossad_man]

Oh and
-make sure to throw out random s. :hk: at the beginning of the matches. He starts getting hit or you trade GREATLY in your favor lol.
-due to the trajectory of his jump, jb fierce is a good on reaction anti air.
-try to get a lead and sit on it. vega has no way in on makoto
-DO NOT dash into those c.:mp: of his.
-did I mention s.:hk: at max range beats 99.99999% of his ground options?

[media=youtube]hTwqXcR0e7Q[/media]

For your viewing pleasure :). there was a little lag so my anti airing is off. But whatever.

[smashingme]

I see you guys using focus, IATsurugi, s.hp etc after a stun alot, is that the best option?
I pretty much always go with focus, fuki, nj.hp (reset) m.oroshi.

[the_mossad_man]

I see you guys using focus, IATsurugi, s.hp etc after a stun alot, is that the best option?
I pretty much always go with focus, fuki, nj.hp (reset) m.oroshi.

I’m assuming you’re talking about in the corner? The #1 option has, and probably will be, to go for the damage. That’s going to be the IAT, s.:hp:, EX Hayate, :lp: Fukiage, EX Tsurugi.

But there are other wonderful options if you’ve landed this a few times, or if they are expecting it…

-Yours is one of the higher end ones. Focus, Fuki reset is nice. Due to the Frame Advantage of Oroshi, you can net a ton of damage from the follow up.
-Another good option is to go for a good damage/reset balance by doing IAT, s.:hp:, EX Hayate, Fukiage, j:hk: (whiff), c.:lk: (whiff), s.:hk: (meaty). This one leads into another s.:hp: combo and a WORLD of hurt if they mash throw, try to jump, or mash normals. Loses to back dash, crouch block, and invul. moves. Also, if this is blocked, you can do :hk: Blockakusa (on some characters) or even go for the :hk: Whiffakusa (on all I’ve tested)
-A really important option is using a Hayate Cancel to set up for a Karakusa. So: IAT, s.:mp:, HC, :hk: Karakusa. More really heavy damage.
-Finally, a good option is to “lay and prey.” Basically after all of the options above you will be out of throw range. Try just holding :db: sometimes. Because they are getting hit, a lot of times they will try to jump. Just wait a second to see if they do and :mp:/:hp: fukiage if they jump back. :lp: fukiage if they jump forward.

There are many other options. The important thing is to mix them all up…

P.S. - love the Cactuar

[Diveman]

sorry that I come here with my rants again but, I give up vs Adon, that matchup is impossible for makoto, its like 10-0

[Hitomi]

I see you guys using focus, IATsurugi, s.hp etc after a stun alot, is that the best option?
I pretty much always go with focus, fuki, nj.hp (reset) m.oroshi.

It depends on the damage scaling and how much life the opponent has left and meter and all that jazz. Ultimately you go for fully charged HP Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi on most stuns if you can, otherwise you play it by ear.

1 hit before the stun: go for max damage, there’s too much to miss out on if you go for a reset or a setup in lieu of damage. This is the only time I would pay the price for 2 meters unless needed.

Spoiler

No meter:
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 236 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 242, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 272 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 285 damage.

1 meter:

FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 302 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 322 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 330 damage.
HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 362 damage.

2 meter:

(Max damage) FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 378 damage.

3 meter:
FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 340 damage.
FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 364 damage.

2 hits before the stun: Damage is still acceptable, so going for max damage is applicable. It’s a tough call between stopping at LP Fukiage or going for the EX Tsurugi at this point if you can’t do the HP Hayate charged combo.

Spoiler

No meter:
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 203 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 208, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 233 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 242 damage.

1 meter:

FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 256 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 264 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 276 damage.
HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 302 damage.

2 meter:

(Max damage) FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 308 damage.

3 meter:
FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 288 damage.
FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 308 damage.

3 hits before the stun: Damage can still be good with the HP Hayate charged combo, I say still go for that; otherwise spend no meter unless desired and go for your preferred c.HP, HP Hayate, or j.HP ender.

Spoiler

No meter:
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 170 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 174 damage, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 194 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 199 damage.

1 meter:
FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 210 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 222 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 222 damage.
(Max damage) HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 259 damage.

2 meter:
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 238 damage.

3 meter:
FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 242 damage.
FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 258 damage.

4 hits: The damage starts getting really pathetic here. It’s barely worth the HP Hayate combo, go for the setup.

Spoiler

No meter:
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, c.HP = 137 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, nj.HP = 140, +25 on a blocked MP Oroshi afterward and obviously a hell of a lot more on hit.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HK Tsurugi = 155 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx HP Hayate = 156 damage.

1 meter:
FA3, HP Fukiage, MK Tsurugi, EX Hayate = 164 damage.
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage = 168 damage.
FA3, HP Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 172 damage.
(Max damage) HP Hayate fully charged, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 208 damage.

2 meter:
FA3, IA MK Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, LP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 184 damage.

3 meter:
FA3, EX Fukiage, HP Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 188 damage.
FA3, EX Fukiage, EX Fukiage, EX Tsurugi = 200 damage.

Anything beyond 4 hits and you should purely pick based on what your favorite setup/reset is against the player/character you’re fighting.

[kona]

mid-screen, crossup ultra2:
backthrow -> empty straight jump -> wait a bit (1frame) -> ultra2
against (for now):
standing:
honda, ibuki, sakura, chunli, rufus, yun, yang
vs yun (at least), it’s unblockable if he’s standing.

need moar test!

I’ve done some crossup vs Zakbg and Peqqi’s makoto yesterday, from crHP.
Need to sum all those things/setup.

To crossup, are you holding :mk: or :hk: after Ultra 2?

[kioshi]

quick question regarding the matchup against Honda: What is mak’s best normal-AAs against his jump-ins? c.MK, s.MP is stuffed a majority of the time. I’m having an issue against my buddy who-- when jumping in-- usually stuffs my AA attempt with a counterhit —> etc. for scary ass damage. Is it best to jump back fierce (and get possibly punished for doing so with headbutt, super, or ultra)?

I found that c.HK works wonders against far jumpins and his neutral jump HP. Another thing that works consistently well against his neutral jump bullcrap is EX fuki—> etc for really nice damage.

Or should I just abandon normals and just LP Fuki all day?

I use stmk against jump in Hondas, it’s been working out so far, don’t see it getting blown up too much.

[v-ryu]

To crossup, are you holding :mk: or :hk: after Ultra 2?

HK version (not holding buttons)

[iinara]

Fierce knuckle is only grabbable on the frames before she’s considered airborne. I don’t know what frame that is exactly, but yeah, you can only grab her out of it at the beginning of startup. Something like fa lvl 2 -> mk karakusa would grab her out of it every time.

And she can only cancel the recovery of seismos on hit or block. On block you can’t punish seismos with anything reliably unless they cancel it with something unsafe. Like how most Vipers do wakeup ex seismo, then when you block it, they cancel into sjc burning kick. I’m not 100%, but if she cancels into a feint I don’t think you can punish her with anything even if you’re right next to her.

RANDOM VIPER FACT©: She’s at like +5 or +6 or something crazy after meaty lp seismo canceled into fierce knuckle feint.

couldn’t we punish the ex seismo feint with a os’d karakusa ?
i know she can block and I suppose do an attack and jump if she wanted to
but wouldn’t the os make the command grab get her no matter what aside from possibly backdash

just a thought

[Zakbg]

I’ve grabbed her out of thunder knuckle with karakusa, but it seemed a little inconsistant when I kept trying to repeat it. This was a few months ago and in the super version of SF, so hopefully someone can test this further and clarify for AE.

As for the normal seismo comment, will the EX hayate punish work if they super jump cancel it to another?

Lol looks like you didn’t understand about the normal seismo , she can’t cancel into anything unless it HITS (block/hit) that’s why if you see her being seismo happy just jump over one and do ex hayate , it will punish the normal seismo , I dont know about the ex one though

[smashingme]

Doesn’t Makoto have some kind of OS on Vipers wakeup that beats all of her options except blocking? Alot of characters do iirc.

[CaptainBOb]

Yun and Yang hitbox datas from Eventhubs:

Hit box images for Yang and Yun in Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition

Palm hitboxes :eek:

[FreddyL0c0]

Doesn’t Makoto have some kind of OS on Vipers wakeup that beats all of her options except blocking? Alot of characters do iirc.

im curious about this as well. ex seismo feint seems to keep her safe from everything. so perhaps a safe jump and that is all?

[the_mossad_man]

Doesn’t Makoto have some kind of OS on Vipers wakeup that beats all of her options except blocking? Alot of characters do iirc.

Yeah f.:mp: lol

[hehwat]

I see you guys using focus, IATsurugi, s.hp etc after a stun alot, is that the best option?
I pretty much always go with focus, fuki, nj.hp (reset) m.oroshi.

I would go for the reset because the scaling and i want to save meter. but if u get a 1 hit stun go for the damage.

[v-ryu]

Great. Meaty crMK/crLP OS u1 work on twins

[Lost_Fragment]

Doesn’t Makoto have some kind of OS on Vipers wakeup that beats all of her options except blocking? Alot of characters do iirc.

Untechable knockdown, then jumpin os cr.hp beats/blocks everything except ex seismo feint.

couldn’t we punish the ex seismo feint with a os’d karakusa ?
i know she can block and I suppose do an attack and jump if she wanted to
but wouldn’t the os make the command grab get her no matter what aside from possibly backdash

just a thought

You can use os karakusa instead to grab her out of ex seismo (not the feint) but it loses to everything else. You can use ex karakusa to grab the feint, but it’ll lose to regular ex seismo.

You can also grab ex seismo with a ex karakusa if you os it off of the 2lp chain. This os is probably better, since I don’t think very many good Vipers are gonna wakeup ex seismo if they see you jump at them, but they might if you land an ex hayate or something and are standing right next to them on their wakeup.

[smashingme]

Great. Meaty crMK/crLP OS u1 work on twins

That sounds pretty awesome, how does it work?

[Niko9193]

Wouldn’t a meaty with a lot of active frames beat all of her wake up options? Maybe st hk?
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