75

I hope not.

The game needs to be balanced at the highest level, not Unity level.

I am jealous of Nash’s dashes. Even though the character has no invincible reversal, his dashes more than compensate for mobility and escape. Bison needs Nash level of dashes outside of VT to justify his walk speed and lack of reversals. He’ll still be more or less free on wake up but at least getting him to fall in the first place should be a herculean task (hence why we also need supreme AA).

76

I don’t think he needs more damage. I just think Bison needs to be able to use his VSkill better. Either by letting him store the hit for later to use it as a fire ball, or by opening it up for more opportunities to use it as a counter.

I also think that maybe moving the hurt box of Devil’s Reverse higher would help out. It would be great if it didn’t get stuff by people pressing simple anti air buttons instead of using Genuine Reversals Like DPs.

That said, I wouldn’t say no to hitting harder.

77

He actually does need to deal Birdie/Necalli levels of damage for his archetype to fully actualize.

78

idk if he NEEDS to do necalli level damage because Bison has mixups/Throw range/footsies that Necalli doesn’t have. Yes they don’t overcome the tools that Necalli has but they don’t have to be on equal on every point. Hence why we are also thinking about other kinds of buffs to make him a better character than just damage. I wouldn’t mind him doing this current damage if:

  • our AAs were better
  • we get backdash teleport
  • VT is timed based instead of usage based
    VT VSkill (absorbs EX Projectiles/ Reflects 3hits projectile/ Builds EX meter)
  • frame data on ALL our moves in VT become how they are in normal mode BUT we keep the extra buffs (invincibility, frame advantages, etc)
    we are supposed to get buffed in VT, not get worse moves
  • better frame data on our heavy normals (faster stHP, crHP and crHK, stHK like in beta 4[ 8f, no extra hurtbox in front of it])
  • +2 d+HP and Shadow axe at -1
  • better VSkill (3F startup, counters low moves)

I mean, there are different ways to make him better. Of course if we choose the original idea of him being a wall, there are some things we will have to forget about and will have to focus primarily on him just having a better AA and better damage. Otherwise, he can become a much more versatile character by giving him small buffs in different areas

79

Yeah I always get scared when I get crush countered by a Bison. The damage is alright in that regard, especially considering Bison gets to keep his pressure on after the combo knockdown. But what I really want is to have options that are not just based on other people walking into his pokes. Also, I got beat all week by Necallis doing wake up jab, Kens doing wake up tatsu and Lauras doing whatever the fuck they want cause Bison isn’t going to punish significantly any of her jump ins and one good jump ins gives her the win.

I got beat quite a few time on air-to-air even using Hell Attack.

Bison’s tools need to get better. He doesn’t need to have more damage or an overhead or things like that. Just give him tools that work the way they’re intended to. If Bison is a wall, don’t extend crazy hurtboxes out of all his moves. Birdie and Alex are more of a wall than Bison with their armored moves and perfect anti-airs.

I like cerberusfx’s list of changes. Give me crazy good normals if I’m not gonna have any defense whatsoever.

Shadow Axe at -1 ? I’m gonna abuse that shit for days. But at least it’ll be fair that I lose to someone who knocked me down once on a single good read while I’ve done work for three quarters of the game trying to open up my opponent.

80

I want our old st.rh back as well.

81

New list:

I’m not trying to balance Bison around the actual metagame. I’m trying to balance his moves around what I understand to be his design. I know he might sound overpowered after these changes, but they also consider that characters like even Ryu, Nash and Ken will be buffed!

Dash duration reduced to 20f
2 last frames of Dash Forward are cancellable into attacks. (this should come only if input lag is decreased by at least 2f).

Cr.LK 4f->3f. Old beta 1 value.
Cr.HP startup 10f -> 8f. Old beta 1 value.

Shadow and Psycho Axe pushback increased. This will make Shadow Axe stronger, but Psycho Axe weaker.

Psycho Blast startup decreased to 8f/12f/16f.
Psycho Blast Recovery reduced by 2f, 3f, 4f. Block advantage now: -2/+2/+6
Edit: Psycho Blast’s hitbox during the first 4f is smaller (beta 2). Deals 80 damage and more pushback. Because of the added frame advantage, being too close could be problematic.
Edit: Psycho Blast’s hitbox during the remaining frames is bigger (beta 1). Deals 70 damage and regular pushback.
VT Psycho Blast follows same framedata

Bison becomes airborne sooner and hurtbox greatly reduced vertically.
Scissors 150 stun… as it should’ve been.
Scissors hit advantage +2 and Scissors VTC Advantage +6/+8/+10. Scissors LK can’t be +3 if Bison has a 3f light. VTC Advantage will increase dmg output.
VT Scissors have same speed, pushback, and damage but added invulnerability. Bison shouldn’t lose tools when activating VT.
EX and VTEX Scissors 160 damage.

Inferno active time +6f. This move needs to be his barrier as designed.
Non-EX Inferno damage +10. Help Bison’s lack of damage a little bit.
VT Inferno matches framedata. EX is +3 on block. EX Inferno is inferior to EX Scissors as it is. The block advantage will help a bit.
Make Bison lean forwarda bit less during Infernos. Will affect range, but the move will work a bit better as a wall.

VT Headpress is fast as EX Headpress. Again, Bison shouldn’t lose tools.
Headpress OTG again. Only usable in Cr.HK CC situations. Specially helpful once VT is activated, as he can’t perform wallcarry.
Headpress EX keeps its projectile invulnerability after touching the opponent. Otherwise, Fang’s projectiles will hit him.
VT EX Headpress has a shockwave that forces block advantage to +2. Dives can be aimed, but vtex hp is always the same advantage. When Birdie or Zang block this move, they’re +.
VT EX Headpress hitbox active 4f before. Make it better as an air-to-air.
EX Headpress invulnerability removed. Well, it’s not reliable anyway, so let’s design Bison around his reliable tools.

Proximity to opponent no longer factored to allow Devil Reverse.
Devil Reverse falls slightly faster.
Devil Reverse hurtbox reverted to Beta 3 size. Really, it’s way too big. It’s not that rewarding.
VT Devil reverse works like regular devil. Must input kick to teleport behind. Same to ex devil. Bison shouldn’t lose tools.

V-Skill is dash cancellable. Its “parry” function is really difficult to use and hardly gives any advantage. Way too situational.
V-Skill v-gauge gain increased.
V-Trigger activation 5f. This will increase Bison’s dmg output.
V-Trigger meter now 3000f instead of 1500. This way, Bison can actually use his VT Specials to zone the opponent, instead of try to rush in and deal burst damage.

Bison will be probably a wall like this, so 950 stun remains.

82

Another thing I want is st.fp to be 10 frames -5. It would be a lot more usable at those numbers. That one frame really makes a difference.

83

My final and realistic wishlist is:

-st.LP +5 on hit
-Inferno MP/HP +50 stun
-cr.HP improved hitbox right above his head
-V-Skill 4f startup.

I doubt Capcom is gonna make complete overhauls of the characters. I think these 4 things would greatly improve Bison while being completely acceptable in the meta.

84

I want…

-2 bar VT instead of 3
-Faster start-up on Cr.HP
-Additional white health damage on all Knee press

85

Knee Press doesn’t even deal white damage.

86

I need this plus:

At most 19f forward teledash but I think 17f frame is a fairer deal.
Backward teledash for visual consistency and make his dashes less telegraphed.
SK is considered airborne.

VT Devil
LP = No teleport
MP = Teleport front
HP = Teleport back
LP + MP = EX teleport front
MP + HP = EX teleport back

87

Yes, I’m sorry…it doesn’t. I should stop drinking :s

88

Final list:

Overall

  • forward dash decreased by 3f (22f>19f) / range covered slightly decreased (amount of invincibility remains the same)
  • backdash decreased by 2f (22f>20f) / teleport animation
  • stun increased to 1000 (950>1000)
  • Back throw: Opponent is slightly more near Bison (still just in range for df+HP)

Normals

  • stLP: chainable
  • stLK: chainable
  • stHk reverted to beta 4 (hurtbox reduced + hitbox slightly wider)
  • stHP startup reduced by 2f (11f>9f)/ Recovery decreased by 3F (21F>18F)/ +2histun/blockstun -> changes frame adv from -1/-6 to +4/-1
  • crLK: startup reduced by 1F (4F>3F) / Recovery reduced by 1F (7F>6F) -> changes frame advantage from +3/+2 to +4/+3
  • crMk +1 hitstun
  • crHp startup decreased by 3f (10f>7f)
  • crHk startup decreased by 6f (15f>9f)
  • shadow axe hitbox now overhead OR +5blockstun -> changes frame advantage on block from -5 to 0
  • j.mk hurtbox reduced on the bottom (around knees)

Vskill

  • vskill startup reduced by 3f (6f>3f) / recovery reduced by 6F (30F>24F)
  • vskill projectile startup reduced by 10f (31f>21f). Free juggle
  • vskill activates vs low moves
  • add VT vskill that can reflect ex projectiles and is also cancelable into ex specials. Builds ex meter when successfully reflected something. Does not deplete from the Vgauge

Specials

  • all regular inferno recovery decreased by 3f. Hitbox size at the base slightly wider for better connection after when cancelled from certain normals (stHP…)
  • All regular psycho blast hitbox slightly wider
  • All scissor kicks hurtbox around feet all majorly reduced and moved upward / stun increased from 50+50 to 75+75
  • LK Scissor kick airborne on the 8th frame
  • MK Scissor kick airborne on the 10th frame
  • HK Scissor kick airborne on the 15th frame
  • EX scissor kick recovery after hit reduced slightly / juggle potential increased by 1 or 2 / airborne on the 6th frame
  • ex headstomp throw/strike invincible on frame 1-6 / tracking speed increased / hitbox size wider slightly
  • regular devil reverse hurtbox around his body majorly reduced / hitbox moved downward
  • ex inferno: Hitbox size at the base wider for better connection after certains normals (stHP…)

Vtrigger

  • Activation animation reduced by 2F
  • Meter use from specials reduced by 15%
  • All VT Scissor kick startup frame data matches regular scissor kick frame data. Invincibility remains unchanged
  • VT Devil Reverse comes out slightly faster
  • VT Psycho inferno active frames increased by 5F (16>21)
  • VT EX Psycho inferno startup frame data matches regular EX psycho inferno startup.
  • VT ex psychoblast no longer detects knockdown opponents. Speed slightly decreased.
  • added VT Ultimate Psycho Crusher: damage increased to 380

Critical Art
Hitboxes are projectile invincible (both regular and VT)

89

I like the requests above and some that other said but I whold only count with small things like better AA or better dash. These 2 whod buff Bison alot, if he had an unreactable dash like Nash and a good AA he whold have a godlike control of the mid range, you whold play at a range that people are scared of the dash because it ’ s hard to react and they whold use pre emptive normals to counter the dash, if you noticed that you whold use Axe and get a CC, if they jumped at you because they where scared of this you whold AA. Sadly now this isn 't super viable because they can react to dash because of how slow it is so they don’t have to pre emptive anything and they can jump at said range and if you get a trade than lucky you. 3f normal whod also help here or a light normal that on CH can go to MP into cr MP special.

90

I love your list @cerberusfx , very well thought out and really covers all the glaring issues. I think the ultimate list possibly lies between yours and Kriger’s, a marriage of the two. Since Kriger’s list covers some of the lower than average damage Bison has and some inadequacies in his specials.

Sometimes I feel we are asking too much with these giant type change lists but then again, why wouldn’t Capcom want every character to be optimal? Is it asking too much for each character to be the best they can be? Meaning they are really REALLY effective at what they are designed to do. I think getting Bison to be what he was intended to be is the best approach, make what he does or is intended to do well better, without giving him an excess of tools not intended for his archetype.

My most conservative changelist would consist of nothing less than:

1- Godlike forward and backward teledashes outside and inside of VT. I’m talking Nash levels but with the signature Bison invincibility. It should be end up being one of the best dashes in the game.
2- Godlike C.HP. Like one of the best AA’s in the game.
3- 3f C.lk.
4- VT lasts significantly longer -AND/OR- V/VEX specials consume significantly less V-meter -AND/OR- V-skill dramatically improved, granting even more V gauge per successful parry.
5- +10-15% Damage and Stun across the board on* all* specials, including even his CA (at least during VT).

These 5 things IMO are the top priority for Bison 2017, and these 5 things alone would significantly help him without breaking him or compromising the intended design.

91

Has anyone from Capcom said ANYTHING about how weak this character is? Like at all? Ever?

92

Combofiend acknowledged it.

93

Been thinking, how do you make Bison less linear (which isn’t necessarily the same as more competitive but I don’t think it warrants its own thread). Do you think the character would benefit from new command normals or a target combo?

94

I feel like a new move would be really helpful. I’m still learning this character, but I already feel like I pretty much know all my options and it’s just a matter of “read everything, make no mistakes!”, rather than trying to figure out how to mix things up for my opponent.

An overhead would be great, but I don’t see that happening, especially with how many aerial attacks Bison already has.

What I’d probably really like the MOST is is a 5 frame “defensive-ish” command normal. There’s this spacing where I feel like I am helpless as Bison, sort of close-mid, and I just have to wait until the fight moves farther or closer. Cr. MP works in many circumstances, but sometimes it is too slow and the Lights are too short. I’m not looking for a big damage opportunity, just something I could use to pop them and take a step somewhere else.

A true target combo would be nice too, but frankly I don’t think Bison has problems getting big damage in once he connects. Even if that damage always comes the same way 99% of the time.