Well its just typically changing your buttons at the beginning of a set of matches against your opponent for however many matches you’re doing 2/3 or 3/5. So I’d say a minor inconvience that most won’t remember by the time they get their Evo 2k6 dvds.
I’ll add a note onto JChensor’s post…
CVS2’s RollCancelling’s would be easier on pad as well.
Well… Roll cancelling would be really hard on pad, worse than Joystick without macro, but then roll cancelling would be a lot easier on pad, better than joystick if it were macros.
One button roll, then one button punch to do your roll cancel… if you put it that way, SURE! I’m up for macros, hehehe…
Then again, I can even take this farther then just macros. It’s easier to parry with a pad than it is a joystick… The thumb need only twitch to do a parry, while you have to bring the stick to a certain distance to make the forward button register… Kill the padmonkeys!
“I dunno, it just seems to me that if you allow Macros for Pad players, then Joystick users, if they have extra buttons, should be allowed them too. It’s only fair. But I’m more for neither having it. Actually, I’ll revise that a bit: I’m okay with it so long as it is just PPP or KKK mapped. Those are naturally disadvantaged on a pad, given button layouts. But Throw Macros, Roman Cancel Macros, and PP or KK Macros, I think should not be allowed.” J-Chensor
I agree with this.
i dont think it was ever discusesed as being pad player EXCLUSIVE. its just an option that mainly pad players would take an advantage of. but it is there for everyone. if you think its “too good god tier broken” well then i would recomend you use it too. And if you argue with “oh im not use to that”, or “thats not how i was tought to play” well then welcome to the arguments of the pad player being forced to not use macros.
Another argument thats turned around is that sure no one is FORCING pad players to use pad,which is true,its just how we personaly feel can give our best. And so if you CHOOSE to use a stick that only has 6 buttons and cant take advantage of macros, then thats your choice. Seems like most stick players are just afraid of some ownage. i think it might upset a few og hardcore gamers here, but atract a whole generation of new players out there,andthus the smarter buisness choice.
alex… what you doing… ._.
If it was an official rule that macros are allowed, then in a way, yes it is fair, anyone can use it to it’s potential, same as if it wasn’t allowed, nobody would be able to.
This is just like how everyone commonly agrees that using Akuma in ST should be banned. He’s just too god tier. Banned. RC is there, and it’s very hard to tell everyone to stop using it, thus it cant be banned.
The point is that Macros can be banned. That’s what we’re discussing. Whether or not this should be allowed is up to the community, not the programming of the game (or not entirely)
As for the entire issue… It’s very true there are many points FOR and AGAINST the usage of macros.
The only way to really solve this is to poll all the SRKer’s. A voting is where the popular opinion rules.
I am sure history has proven that popular opinion isn’t always right.
RCs are not banned are because SF directors have tried not to mess with the game unless absolutely nessecary.
IMO it should be up to the programming of the game unless we feel strongly otherwise, or it throws the entire tournament into chaos (i.e. EX chars in GG, EO mode in some versions of CvS2).
Personal preference, or some sort of “god intended me to play SF a certain way, anything else would be wrong” argument is not strong enough IMO. If a majority prefer sanwa, should we just ban all happ and pad players and be done with it? Some rules can’t be decided by mere popular opinion, especially when it involves banning.
This rule’s pretty much yes or no(with ppp and kkk only as a middleground). I’m sure there are going to be unhappy people with a vote, but someone is going to have to decide whether it’s on or off, and that should be srk’s members.
What’s a better alternative to solving this?
But that’s just it, you’re using a handicap to play your best. If I play my best by putting your handicap stars all the way down, that doesn’t mean we should allow it (unfair comparison, but still a handicap is a handicap). Macros unbalance the game, and make it in favor of people that use them (primarily pad players), not equal for both parties (pad w/macro and stick).
BTW, Is there even a macro option for lp+lk in CvS2? In fact, which games offer macros besides PPP and KKK? I know Guilty Gear does, but what about the other games that we actually play at Evo?
The middle ground was based on james’s assessment of what macros are comparable to playing on a stick. I agree with the assessment itself, but there’s no reason to have a joystick based rule in the first place, so there’s no reason to go to a middle ground. It’s nice I guess to make some people happy, but i’d rather have a set of rules that anyone can run a large, efficent tournament by than to just make more people happy.
It’s already solved. The question is did they miss anything, like some super macro only infinite or something important enough to reconsider it.
does that mean i can use the extra 2 buttons on my stick as well?
as of now, yes
Using a broken character is not the same as using macros unless you want to put it on an extremely abstract level that would entail all sorts of things you one would not want to get tangled with … I argued for this earlier.
I don’t mean to be an ass but you are using handicap incorrectly for the nth time. I replied to you using the terminology in that way once so you would understand but I think that if you got it right things would sound better to you. A *handicap *is *not *an advantage, but a disability, or *disadvantage *of some kind. Think handicapped people, like wheel chairs. That’s certainly not an advantage, is it? I think if you realized this conceptual error the rest of your comments wouldnt make sense to you as well, which they don’t. Your comment on stars usage is extremely incorrect, as you noted. Why even use it? Your comments make no sense. They are just assertions. I don’t mean that offensively. I think if you get rid of the handicap notion you have you will see it too.
What you probably mean to say is that macros give an advantage, and well, you have received a counter argument to this over and over and it’s that sticks do too. If you want to make it balanced you would ban sticks and ban controller configurations of all kinds, and then make no rules at all concerning character usage (both could be Gill if they wanted) and let players have at it. It’s not fun at all that way for obvious reasons. But your position is entirely biased towards sticks and really, I don’t think anyone thinks it’s easier to play on a pad than a stick at high levels like you seem to be suggesting.
That means that stick players have a one-button ppp and kkk? Not a big deal. Kara throws aren’t a big deal either to me. What’s the problem again. I assumed that I would be against macros but, unless they allow for special features, I think it’s more fair for pad players. If pad players can use the pad in the same way stick players can perform on a stick then that’s good enough for me. If macros help them to make less mistakes with the buttons, good. Timing and rapid button pressing still remain the skill. Saber makes a point about execution and I agree to an extent but if someone screws up a lariat then the opponent wins more by luck from my point of view. Random luck. That isn’t a badly performed combo or skill. That could come down to how a players hands are shaped and stick players can mash ppp to get a quick kara lariat and a pad player can’t as eeeeasily. Yup, pads are inferior. Macros sound like a way to even it out a bit more and that’s being inclusive to pad players and as Saber also sad, the SF scene is in peril and I’m all for Evo making some decisions that can increase the player base that isn’t following the Japanese. We aren’t Japan although players act like it should be which I feel is more than short-sighted.
Congrats to Inkblot for seeing the big picture this time where SF is concerned. I know this isn’t an SF only decision but, wtf do I care? It’s a good decision from my personal analysis and my first reaction was W,T,F!? Glad I thought it over.
Hmm, let’s get an opinion for a well respected member of the SF scene…
There you have it, somebody does seem to think some things are easier on pad. Not everything, but some things.
I may be misusing the term handicap, but the logic behind it is the same. Anybody who needs extra help while playing the game is not making it fair to people who play it without the extra help. Macros, Steroids, Corked Bats, Vasoline, etc etc. They all aim to make an inferior player better, or a decent player a god tier player. (not specifically in SF).
What you are implying is that you are somebody who is handicapped that needs a wheelchair. You aren’t. You are a lazy person who wants the chair because they don’t feel like they should have to walk with technology like the wheelchair in the world.
Some things are easier on a sanwa joystick than a happ, it’s irrelavant.
Everything you mentioned other than macros is brought in from outside what is normally provided when you play a game, macros are provided with the game, and as such are an accepted method of control until proven otherwise.
Macros are provided to everyone that owns the game, and please stop using handicapped references, it just makes the argument silly to take compare this to people who are handicapped in real life.
To be honest Pimp Willy, you really like to just dig yourself holes.
You did read jchensor’s post right? Or do you like taking things out of context and generally misinterpreting them to make arguments? He is talking about sticks vs pads that have macros and sticks that do not. His next paragraph confirms his thoughts on this. (I also like your ad hominen at the end, as if it adds to your non-existent points. I specifically pointed out I wasn’t trying to be an ass in correcting you, but perhaps you took it the wrong way or perhaps you just wanted to be an ass at this point anyway.)
No one has suggested sticks don’t get macros. They will too. Giving pads macros does several things, one of which is leveling the playing field a bit. (But it is an ADVANTAGE (not handicap) to both.) Jeez, there is even a post on this page that asks that question and is answered affirmitively. This can be easily inferred from Inkblot’s post as well. **Of course **it would be easier to perform certain (BUTTON - not command) moves with macros.
To lay it on the table, here are my thoughts:
stick >>>> pad (no macros)
stick >> pad (*both *have macros)
It’s debatable what would have an advantage in the case where a stick doesn’t have macros and a pad has macros. My opinion on this is that the stick still does, because the error rate is still extremely low, and they can still perform certain command moves better. But this is irrelevent because it isn’t even under consideration.
In any case, your argument is inconsistent. Even if it were the case stick players could not use them, and you thought pads were better, then your “Argument from Choice” you erroneously posited earlier would just state that they can stop playing with their handicapped stick and play with an advantaged pad. Because it’s their choice, right? :rolleyes:
Lets all play world warrior with broken nes controlls because its the original and it would be challenging because the controlls are worse.
Playing new games are bad because they made command inputs easier to do.
Playing on better controllers are bad because its easier to do commands with.
And teams, single elimination, one game, and no prizes so we can pretend to be Japanese~
Why is this always the crux of the arguement? In reality, for those that don’t use macros, the arguement always boils down to it simply not being fair. I didn’t have it easy, so you don’t even deserve to, even if it levels out the playing field. You either make it harder on yourself so you see what I went through and appreciate it, or you buy a joystick and be done with it.
Why does it bother you non macro / stick playing guys so much? Hell, it practically offends you guys, doesn’t it? Pimp Willy here says they’re automatically inferior. WHY? I’d really like to know, seeing as how I’m on both sides of the coin.
I’m serious.
He doesn’t really have an argument. If he does, his argument rests on the faulty assumption that playing a pad is equivalent to playing on a stick, even at high levels of play. (Both having no macros allowed.) Unless you accept this, everything he says makes little sense. I don’t accept this, and I don’t think anyone else does. That’s *why *they buy sticks: *because *they are better than pads. I don’t think he realizes that this is one of his assumptions; otherwise I doubt he would continue with this line of argument.