Preppy already mentioned them. It is just a bad idea, it is basically saying its ok if you shortcut we dont mind. It just takes even less skill out of fighting games.
Whee i found it
This is a very clear cut and sensible line: The controls that the game already allows you to assign (or assign by default). I do not buy that this has opened a slippery slope to programmable joysticks and turbo buttons. They are two totally different things.
- As i said above, i don’t believe that anything has been opened except what is stated.
- It’s more of a hassle to explain to players why they either have to change from default game settings, saying ‘use the button config screen as it was made’ is a lot less hassle IMO
Whiny? No? Really? No idea where anyone would get the idea that players would whine about anything?!?!
So far the rule is doing pretty well wrt arguments, and i keep asking for examples of abuse that are on the ‘programmable controller’ level where the game would become silly, and not seeing anything worth looking at further.
One solution to broken controls is to bring your own, already handled.
As for the macros, why is there a discussion on which to allow and which to not? IMO the easiest way to handle it is to allow whatever the config screen allows. If there is a problem then what is it?
- what ‘abuse’ is there, especially in DC marvel above the lowest scrub level?
- what do macros have to do with reconfigging buttons, it’s all part of one config, you either have the config you want, or did it wrong, if you didn’t get your config, it’s your own fault and noone is entitled to let you change it AFAIK.
The game developers give moves certain commands for a reason. If they wanted a throw in Tekken to be one button instead of two, they’d make it that way. You’re basically changing the game when you alter what needs to be inputted in order to get the same result. It’s natural that people aren’t going to agree with something that changes the way moves were originally meant to be performed.
Pressing multiple buttons simultaneously is the only distinct disadvantage pad players have (the actual d-pad being worse than a stick is mostly subjective) but Inkblot already said macros available in the game options are allowed, so no problem there. There are no other objective drawbacks to using a controller so if people start asking for more than that… well, that’s when it becomes ridiculous.
^-- Thread seems done to me. The delineation between in-game macro and joystick-produced macro is the key point and puts the issue to bed. :tup:
Its only PP, that isn’t that hard to do on a pad, but PPP, thats quite a bit harder than on the arcade. Which was why capcom allowed you to map that to a single button. But lets assume that they don’t allow that macro and with your config you have 2 completely different planes to his P and P to dash (ie R2 and O), thats a lot harder than pressing those two on the arcade. Not to mention all of the chains and cancels that marvel has, makes it tons easier to play on a stick. Not messing up 1 move isn’t going to make that much of a difference. Especially since its double elimination anyway.
For ST TAP holding kicks with their palms and playing normally with their punches on a stick. Sure that takes skill. But now try playing that way on a PS2, XBox or DC pad? Accomplishing said feat is now near impossible.
For XvSF, look above. With all of the chains, launchers and air combos in that game, its practically impossible to replicate that kind of play on a pad. You can’t drum roll the buttons on a pad as easily than you can on a stick. You can’t RC as easily as you can on a stick, there is virtually nothing as easy or easier on a pad than there is on a stick. Especially the DC and PS2 pads (don’t have an xbox pad to compare).
i dont agree with the whole macro thing being allowed. but it is what it is. but i just think that sometimes matches are won and lost on some of the simplest execution mistakes. like giefs lariat not coming out for the kill when it should have. or a roman cancel not coming out to continues the combo that would have killed your opponent. granted hitting 2 or 3 buttons at the same time is pretty damn easy(on sticks that is), there will be times where you miss, and sometimes that can cost you the match. who knows. i just look at using macros as eliminating some human error in certain execution scenarios. yes i understand why there are button macros built in the game, yes i understand that ppp and kkk is a chore on pad that doesnt have a 6 button layout. the games werent ORIGINALLY designed to have those macros. its something they decided to add in the console port.
needing macros for pad players is just another obvious fact that pad is inferior to a stick. and it should tell a lot of pad players that maybe they arent using the right tools to be good and need handicaps.
thats just how i see it
pad players do not need macros. You can press 3 buttons on pad. And if you cant well that should be the price you pay.
exactly. not our fault they decide to use inferior hardware thats not designed for a fighter that uses 5 or more buttons. they chose to use pad’s, i think that should be their problem.
but im also not about turning players away, with how the scene is hurting. granted most pad players i see(not all), especially ones needing macros, tend to dissappear after 2 months of play when they arent winning…
It’s not inferior at all. It is all a matter of preference. The End.
moonless: yes, it is inferior if you have to use a macro to do certain commands when the game was clearly originally designed for the original button layout and you use a pad that cant replicate the button layout (example: dual shock pad, unless its tekken or other 4 button or less game)
This has been debated way too many times, at least in the Guilty Gear community, and I’m sure it isn’t the only game in which macros are a touchy subject.
My take on it is the same as it’s always been: Macros reduce the margin of error no matter what game you’re playing, since you’re only pressing one button, as opposed to 3 or more. It isn’t “less skillful”, per se, but you sure are making your scenarios of fucking up a lot lower, especially in tense, stressful tournament situations where you end up fucking up something (as opposed to something in casual or training mode where you can execute stuff easily and “consistently” without thinking too much about it).
However, if you lost to a player that’s using macros, you were probably going to lose to him anyway, regardless of whether they button map or not. You losing to a macros user isn’t SOLELY because of the fact that he used macros… he most likely beat you and outplayed you in other facets, too. Needless to say, I haven’t encountered many macros users in Guilty Gear that can beat me consistently, aside maybe ONE. I’m not worried too much about these people, at all. I’m a pad player myself (for Guilty Gear) and I don’t use macros. I used to, but I learned how to NOT need to use macros. There shouldn’t be any excuses for not being able to hit 3 buttons on a pad, because I’ve seen way too many methods of making “pressing 3 buttons” easier on a pad.
The fact that EVO is a “console tournament” (and yet it not allowing button mapping or macros) is actually a pretty good argument that I’m willing to accept. Yes, I’m against button mapping, but at this point, I don’t really care that much, at all, anymore. And considering EVO is a “console” tournament, you might as well allow it.
Are PS2 pads pretty much inferior to sticks? Sure, especially in SF (not so much in Tekken since thats only 4 buttons anyhow). But which of these “superior” sticks shoulid I invest in? Switch? Sanwa? P360? 4 gate or 8 gate? Ball or bat design?
Had there been a single line of sticks, and no one ever made any variations to it, then sure. It’d be easy to conform and buy my own stick without worrying if putting in 6 months of breaking it in to find out that XYZ tournament uses a different type of stick and I’m screwed anyway.
Not to mention some sticks not working with certain consoles (blue screen on the DC anyone, or AfroLegends trying to find a PS2 that would accept his stick for his money match against DSP last evo).
Aside from that the margin of difficulty difference between Stick -> pad is much larger than the Stick -> pad with macro. Pad players are already handicaped enough, no need to handicap them further.
are marcors an advantage? Yes. but there an equal one. if you think they are so good, then use them too.
Pretty much anything I say will only loop back around and around. It’s just easier to deal with whatever rules that organizers put up. I’m not worried about them, I can play on stick and pad. GG I feel is geared towards pad and stick players. You can effectively play on whichever one you’re comfortable with. I prefer pad because it’s what I’ve been playing since I was a kid. As long as people dont start saying no more pads, sticks only then I’m sure the pad players won’t have a real problem. I’ll be the first to say that I don’t care if someone macros a burst, rc, or whatever to a shoulder button. You’re still pressing buttons, its not like someone magically does it for you or the game does it for you. That’s just crazy talk! It doesn’t take anything out of the experience is all I’m saying. No need to condemn players who are accustomed to macros, however if people as a whole feel like macros are “cheap” or whatever the hell you guys have a problem with then don’t allow macros. Simple as that right?
Even with macros I don’t think pads are at an advantage. On stick the movement is alot more precise and so are the buttons. Not to mention your hands are always hovering over the buttons on stick for faster reflex. I’ve mapped my stick before just to see how it’ll play and it made it harder. Just too many buttons. Macros help pad players. But I don’t see stick players using them even if though they’re allowed. If it evens things up and brings out more people, I’m all for it. I’d never cry over being beat by a macro pad user.
Ok, I’ll try and see if I can remember what I was going to say. Keep in mind I have nothing against having macros in the games, I don’t think it will end the tournaments as we know it or anything, but this is my argument coming from the point of view of a stick player.
Basically, the argument from pad players is that it becomes too hard to press multiple buttons at the same time. I think most people agree with this statement. It is doable, but much harder, to press PPP on a pad than on a stick.
Now, the choice becomes clear at this point:
-
They can play with macros. They are built into the games options, and allow them to continue to play on pad without fear of ever messing up the PPP move again.
-
Since the PPP move is holding them back, and they are a competitive gamer, they will move on to what they feel is a better alternative: a stick. Now it is much easier to do PPP moves, but there is still a chance they can mess it up.
Option 1 takes no effort and has a greater reward.
Option 2 takes effort and has a smaller reward.
It really doesn’t seem fair to those of us on stick who still have an opportunity to mess up PPP (God knows I mess up my fair share of EX moves in 3s).
Now the counter argument to this from pad players is this:
“We play on pad, so we are at a disadvantage. So this helps us out”
And the counter to that counter is
“It was your choice to play on pad, you could play on stick”
to which the counter comes back
“Sticks are too expensive/Too hard to get”
to which the final counter is
“It’s your choice to play on pad, you could play on stick”
To give pad players an advantage for free is not fair. Stick players may have an advantage because the hardware is better, but you have to put in time and skill to get that reward (i.e. learning to play with a joystick). Pad players are given the macro buttons without any need for time/effort put it to get the reward of the advantage.
*disclaimer: I know that stick players are allowed to have access to these macro buttons as well, but most SF sticks only have 6 buttons so there is no room to add a PPP button. However, it is possible to drill extra buttons/use the 2 extra buttons on a MAS stick to get this advantage too, but I doubt you’ll see any stick players trying this (but who knows?)
And without that macro, its even harder to do those ex-moves in 3s on a pad. But its your choice not to use a pad that doesn’t have a 7-8 buttons for the macros.
Honestly these joysticks are more a problem than macros, everyone wants a different one built to gain an advantage in their execution, and they aren’t built the same costing the tournament hours and hours in button configs.
If we wanted to be fair to the players, speed up the tournament, and create a level field, the solution is just to ban all custom sticks, either use a pad, or a stick designed for the console / evo provided convertors with default mapping.
If i thought it could be implemented I would be all over it. But i don’t think everyone will change their sticks just for evo, so it will probably never happen. I brought it up because some stick players are getting a little too wild with their claims of whats ‘fair’ and ‘inferior’, i’m not so sure their controls are as superior as they claim.
And it’s your choice to play on a pad that makes the EX moves harder to do in the first place, right? Isn’t that what we’re getting to? You choose to play on a pad where it’s harder to do the moves the games require, and you want a way to even it out for you. Except you’re not evening it out, you’re giving yourself an advantage. Then you argue that pad is naturally inferior in the first place, so it balances out, which is not necessarily true at all. Because you CHOSE to play on the pad, and you weren’t forced to, you must take all responsibility for the advantages and drawbacks of that controller, and not try to give yourself an edge to “Make it even”
fmj: not all games have the same default button layout. you arent avoiding button config screen no matter what unless we are forced to use specific sticks that evo provides for us. even then, people wanna make 100% sure their buttons are still right, so they will go check anyway. you cant avoid it