M.O.D.O.K. Thread 2: Orgasm Harder

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
1581

It’ll be great to have you back! I don’t think I’ve done much since you were last active. Recently, I’ve been looking into unblockable oki after a hard knockdown and posted my progress in the combo thread.

I’ve also been hacking away the damage scaling system to see exactly how it works and I think I just finished doing so. There’s nothing terribly important there, but it’s good to know that damage for a given attack is not dependent on what buttons are pressed before said attack, but rather is dependent on the number of hits. It’s also interesting that S scales like a special, but j.S scales like a heavy attack. That seems to apply to all characters. I’m going to post an in depth write-up on the main boards later.

1582

Took them long enough to find it, but I’m glad you got it back. Good to have you back as well.

So between these 2 teams which one do you think would be best guys? I really just want to focus on one team. Jill/Modok/Ammy and Jill/Modok/Strider. I think the Ammy team is probably gonna be my best bet.

1583

Yeah took long enough but im glad they found it. Gives me faith in the diligence of my local police. Was pissing me off whenever my friends would tell me the thieves were logging into my PSN account so im glad they got caught.

I dont know much about Jill except that she would need some sort of air control so strider between those choices. As a suggestion also consider Dante if you wanted to keep lockdown while having some AA with Jam session

1584

I think the Strider team is better for the same reason (air control is important), but play what you’re comfortable with. If you like Ammy better, go for it.

1585

Was that dmg scaling thing not well-known? There is some weirdness with it too. I know Prozac tried to sit down and figure it all out but IIRC he said he couldnt make sense of Hulks normal scaling.

And some things actually scale less than normal, like Dante’s Beehive scaling less than the typical 5% on his specials.

I think how fast combos scale is character-dependent, and then there are unscaled moves (Thor mighty spark is partially unscaled; iirc its last 2 hits for L, last 4 for M and last 6 for H)…its kind of a clusterfuck.

Found what i was thinking of before, good info: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/637240-ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3/64969021

1586

I’m not sure what damage scaling thing you are referring to? Anyway, I haven’t completed my write-up entirely, but it’s mostly done. It’s in the spoiler below (don’t want to derail too much). Using the method I describe in it, Dante’s Beehive does scale properly, but the game’s rounding gives you 700 instead of 750 damage.

I looked into the Thor unscaled stuff, and that’s pretty interesting. It looks like those hits are given a base scaling factor of 1. The unscaled hits do 13,000 each normally, but on one up TAC, they do 19,500 each (13,000*1.5). That fits with the model I describe below.

Spoiler

A lot of the basics are covered well in SRKs wiki, but there’s one glaring mistake. I’ll start from scratch here. There are 5 different categories of attacks: lights, mediums, heavies, specials, and hypers. Each of these are associated with a scaling factor that applies for all characters. Only level 3 hypers are not accounted for through these categories and they deal unscaled damage. Note that launchers (S) are scaled like specials while your air combo finishers (j.S) are scaled like heavies. Also, raw tags, TACs, and the character hit after a TAC all are scaled like specials.

Scaling Factors
Light - 0.75
Medium - 0.8
Heavy - 0.85
Special - 0.9
Hyper - 0.95

To calculate a given attack’s damage, you can use the following basic equation (not generalized).

Damage = attack_base_damage * (scaling_factor)^number_of_hits_before_this_attack

For example, suppose I do (cr.H, IAD j.M)x2 with MODOK and I want to know the damage of the second j.M, or the fourth hit, in this combo. j.M’s base damage is 70,000.

Damage = 70,000 * (0.8)^3 = 35,840 -> 35,800

The game will always round down to the nearest 100. So, if the calculated damage is in the range [35800, 35899], we actually get a damage output of 35,800. The only slight exception to this is when the special scaling factor is used. If the calculated damage is in the range [35801, 35900] and the special scaling factor is used, we get a damage output of 35,800.

Now, each character has a minimum scaling factor for their lights, mediums, heavies, specials, and hypers. These minimum scaling factors are used if [(scaling_factor)^number_of_hits] is less than the minimum scaling factor. For example, if we use MODOK’s j.M for hit number 21, we have [(scaling_factor)^number_of_hits] = (0.8)^20 = 0.012. MODOK’s minimum scaling factor for mediums is 0.2, so damage = 70,000 * 0.2 = 14,000. Note that assists use their own minimum scaling factors, not the point character’s.

Activating XFactor can alter those minimum scaling factors and also apply a damage boost. For example, MODOK’s XF1 gives him a 1.35 damage boost for normals and the minimum damage scaling for normals goes to 0.35. Using j.M for hit number 21 gives us the following damage output: (70,000*0.35)*1.35 = 33,075 -> 33,000.

Finally, TACs are associated with bonus scaling factors.

Up - 1.5
Side - 1.25
Down - 1

These scaling factors are applied when calculating damage using the normal damage scaling equation (not minimum scaling factors) and they persist for the duration of the combo. For example, let’s say that I use MODOK’s j.S after a side TAC on the 7th hit.

Damage = 90,000 * [1.25*(0.85)^6]

These TAC bonus scaling factors can stack, but in an unintuitive way. After doing one TAC and doing a second TAC without landing, the previous bonus scaling factor is removed in the equation and is replaced with the new corresponding value, except that it is doubled. For example, if you do a down TAC then an up TAC, the bonus scaling factor is 1.5^2 = 2.25. If you do an up TAC then a down TAC, the bonus scaling factor is 1^2 = 1. Note that doing a TAC or two, landing, and doing a launcher into another TAC will not stack and will just give you the normal TAC bonus scaling factors. Also note that the TAC hits and the character hits right after a TAC never apply TAC bonus scaling factors.

Finally, here are some base damage values for global attacks.
TAC Up - 60,000
TAC Side/down - 50,000
Character hit after TAC - 50,000
Raw tag - 30,000
Snapback - 50,000

Let me know if I messed something up. And yes, I forgot to look into grabs.

EDIT: Throws appear to apply a scaling penalty of 0.5 to non-Hypers.
Command grabs appear to apply a scaling penalty of 0.7 to non-Hypers.

1587

The thing about scaling being based on hits, not what type of hits came prior.

So, from your tests, are you saying that scaling doesn’t vary between characters (in terms of how much normals are scaled, and also how quickly)? What about XF-specific alterations to scaling?

I’ll give the rest a proper look later. I personally never did any damage scaling testing. :confused: Interesting about Beehive tho…

Also, IIRC the SRK wiki is wrong about some other things. I can’t quite remember them, but I think one was Nova’s hyper scaling? Idk. Your stuff looks a lot more solid at first glance, would work well as its own page on there.

1588

Ah, ok. That’s actually the big concept that is wrong on the wiki, and they actually walked through an example with the assumption that scaling depends on the type of prior hits. I never really gave it much thought before.

And yes, damage scaling doesn’t seem to vary between characters. It’s been consistent with MODOK, Doom, Dante, Wesker, Magneto, and Thor, so I think it’s safe to say that that applies generally. For XF, minimum scaling values change, and the XF damage boost is multiplied after the scaling stuff. A general equation would go like this:

scaled damage = floor{xf_damage_boost * base_damage * max{tac_or_grab_scaling * (base_scaling_factor^num_hits), min_scaling_factor}}

I’m not entirely sure what happens if you start with a grab, TAC, then TAC to the character who did the grab. I’m not sure if the grab scaling penalty goes away or not. I’m not entirely certain where the floor function is applied either (before or after the xf damage boost).

1589

Very nice stuff LTP. :]

I experimented it with a couple hours to try to get a tentative grasp on it a while ago, and I think what was throwing me was the whole Rounding thing. I never considered it. Without taking rounding into account, Dante’s Beehive does something like 3.7% at max scaling, and at that point I threw in the towel and called the minor details of the system unintelligible nonsense. But if all that does check out, than that’s very nice. I might have to do some more tests with rounding in mind.

I know that Hulk’s lighter attacks appears to hit max scaling sooner than his heavier attacks, likely due to their own damage modifiers bringing the value down to minimum scaling sooner than the comparatively higher heavy attack modifiers, etc.

I tip my hat to another scientist doing god’s work

1590

Thanks! I haven’t encountered any problems with it yet. I’m going to go everything pretty thoroughly just in case, since my end goal is to make a combo calculator and hopefully host it.

1591

LTP you play Xbox pad right? Can you give tips on his throw flight cancel 2B combos, landing the dash relaunch midscreen in the bnb, and getting the H in the mmhs of the bnb to connect? I feel like MODOK is like Doom in that hes just a lot smoother on stick unfortunately.

1592

Yep, I play on 360 dpad. For the (cr.M, fly, IAD j.M) sequence, I can’t really say much except practice. My main issue at first with it was that I’d accidentally get HBR through doing fly into the dash. Just practice and make sure your inputs are fast enough and clean enough. Here are some alternative throw followups. For ground forward throws, you can do: (dash, cr.M, L cube, cr.LMS). For back throws, you can do: (wave dash twice, cr.M, L cube, cr.LS). For air back throws, you can do: (wave dash thrice, cr.M, L cube, S). You can also just do (cr.M, S) for those followups.

As for the midscreen relaunch, you have a number of options.

  • wave dash twice, cr.M, fly, j.H, add(f), S
  • wave dash twice, cr.M, S
  • jump uf, addf, cr.M, S
  • dash, cr.M, fly, addf, S
  • dash, cr.M, fly, IAD j.M, S
    The first relaunch works with more extended starters. The last relaunch is the least consistent due to HSD.

For getting j.H to hit in the (j.MMHS) series, you just need to input your air series faster after the launcher. Note that (j.MMHS) does not work on all characters or is tricky enough that you’ll want to use an alternative. These characters are your smaller characters like Firebrand, and includes a couple of others like Storm and Strange. For those characters, you’ll want to use either (j.MMS) or (j.MHS). Those work on all characters. If you choose to use (j.MMS), make sure to delay the air series a bit, as you do with the second air series. As for the (j.MHS) series, you’ll want to input the first j.M fairly quickly. You can actually use (j.MHS) to make your midscreen relaunch simple. Simpy input (j.MH) as quickly as possible and delay the j.S slightly. Doing so makes the opponent stay lower to the ground in comparison to the typical air series, making the opponent land closer to you when you go for the relaunch. The end result is that you can relaunch with something simple like (dash, cr.M, S) afterwards.

1593

Thanks that was very helpful!

1594

Do you guys think Rocket Raccoon/Dok/Sent_Doom would be a good team?

1595

[details=Spoiler][/details]

Nice summary of damage scaling.

This has all been known for a while to people who took the time to break it down, but it would be nice if someone took the initiative and corrected the wiki (it does have the correct scaling factors though).

Adding frame data would also be great since Preppy said the specious embargo on numbers is no longer in effect.

One thing though, I don’t believe all command grabs scale to 70%. I’ll have a look later just to make sure.

Normal throws do, however, apply a flat 50% modifier to begin with and are still subject to the same minimum scaling.

1596

My understanding was that it was always simply “don’t copy other people’s hard work and pretend it’s your own”, more or less. :smile:

1597

So, um, point of interest…

PSN Online Play has something of a Galactus issue at the moment, and Modok is actually pretty good at fighting him. Modok Barrier completely stops Galactus’s “hypers”(which are actually just fancy normals), and Air H Psi Blaster x A Million is a reasonable, safe way to do damage. Pretty sure with Double Modok, you could just stack Barriers, and safely beat him from full screen.

That’s all.

1598

^ That’s pretty hilarious. I didn’t know that Galactus didn’t have any hypers.

Random L blaster oki for forward techs: (L blaster, H cube, grounded aduf, adf, j.H, cr.H, etc) OR (L blaster, H cube, grounded aduf, addf, cr.H, etc)
It’s a good way to get some pressure going if the opponent likes to forward tech. I haven’t tested it too much, so I’d be wary of invincible options, though you can definitely space out something like lariat with the low variant.

I also got down cr.H hopping pretty consistently and tried it out on my local scene. It’s such a great tool for pressure.

1599

Why do you Doks like Dok/Dorm/Doom so much beyond the unblockable reset and all 3 characters being badasses lol?

DH seems like it allows one mixup at best and the team has nothing to prevent Dok from getting derped to death. By the way, why does DH make the reset inescapable?

1600

Missiles certainly helps for when you get hit, and DH is alright at giving you space. I’m sure there are easy cube confirms and solid pressure strings when the opponent is in cube range. It’s been awhile since I’ve played the team.

I assume that you mean the air grab into unblockable reset. It basically prevents any mash options the opponent my have to get out of it. For example, Vergil can tech the grab and fall with j.L to hit MODOK out of j.M to get out. That option is eliminated by Dark Hole. It may also have the potential to cause a guardbreak when you go for the reset. I know that happens at a decent rate when I tried it out with Chun’s LL assist.

Dark Hole is one of the best assists for setting up unblockables. I put a quick example in my tutorial video over a year ago that’s still pretty good, but there’s probably an even better way of going about it. There’s Dark Hole stuff starting around 18:30 (includes basic mixups as well). Note that the setup shown takes advantage of the point blank unblockable, which applies to slightly over half the cast.