13

Also useful if you didn’t know already, I’ll give you my selfmade list containing normals framecounts, frame advantage after KD’s and chained normals framecounts.

Frame data: startup-active-recovery—total

Cs.lp. 4-2-6—11
Cs.mp. 3-2-13–17
Cs.hp. 4-2-26–31
Cs.lk. 5-2-7—13
Cs.mk. 5-2-14–20
Cs.hk. 6-2(4)4-17-31???
Fs.lp. 3-2-5----9
Fs.mp. 4-2-13–18
Fs.hp. 6-3-16–24
Fs.lk. 3-2-8—12
Fs.mk. 9-2-13–23
Fs.hk. 8-2(8)2-16-34???
Cr.lp. 3-2-7—11
Cr.mp. 4-3-9—15
Cr.hp. 6-4-23–32
Cr.lk. 4-2-9—14
Cr.mk. 5-3-13–20
Cr.hk. 6-3-24–32
Throw. 3-2-20–24
OH. --37

Frame advantage
Sweep 45f
Ex fb. ± 45f
Hp shaku ± 45f
F.throw 72f
B.throw. 34f
Df.throw 64f
U1 58f

Chains

Cr.lk xx cr.lk—19
Cr.lk xx cr.lp—16
Cr.lk xx fs.lk—17
Cr.lk xx fs.lp—14
Cr.lk xx cs.lk—18
Cr.lk xx cs.lp—16

Cr.lp xx cr.lk—18
Cr.lp xx cr.lp—15
Cr.lp xx fs.lk—16
Cr.lp xx fs.lp—13
Cr.lp xx cs.lk—17
Cr.lp xx cs.lp—15

Cs.lp xx cr.lk—19
Cs.lp xx cr.lp—16
Cs.lp xx cs.lp—17
Cs.lp xx cs.lk—18

14

Thanks for the list, Rikudou. I was actually going to write down the whiff timings tonight, so perfect timing! Haha
I messaged LoyalSol a few days ago about this to make sure I was calculating it right, but it seems your list confirms my method of calculating whiff data (assuming total frames are what you use for whiffing normals on setups).
I’m actually including a section in my guide about using training mode to test set ups, so I’ll be sure to give you credit for your list. (Also if you want, you could glance over my draft of the guide for that section that would be greatly appreciated).

15

I main ibuki. The safe jump/meaty jump timing needs to be changed for the different wake up times. Not by much obviously but 1 frame can mean a the difference between landing an attack and getting smacked with a reversal. That 1f hasn’t fucked anyone on their meaty attacks on me.

16

I guess double dash jump hk the safe jump against 5 framers is the one they use on your Ibuki after f.throw.
This setup works on 5f but 6 framers too I assume with the several active frame of the hk so She’s like a 6 framer with normal wake up (7f reversal - 1f wakeup).

17

I forgot you mained Ibuki when I wrote that, but now it makes sense :slight_smile:

@Shabrout I think you misread; Ibuki’s LK and EX dragon kicks are 6 frames, not 7. So Ibuki gets up 1 frame faster, meaning they have to safe jump her as if she was a 5 framer w/ normal timing (not a 6 framer as you said). I believe you are right though and this why nobody has problems with their meaty timing on ibuki, since most people safe jump with a j.HK that hits meaty and recovers in time to make 5 frame reversals whiff.

18

yep that’s what I meant :slight_smile: Funny thing is I have a hard time safe jumping her on training mode, It’s probably cause I fail the instant dashes. I’ll check this again.

19

Correction about Ibuki, lk and ex Kazegiri are 5framers, with her 1frame faster wakeup that make them 4framers. I can beat the lk one with double dash j.hk but because of hitbox. Th eex version blow me like it should wirth his invincibility. By the way how many frames invincinbility ex Kazegiri have ?

20

Oh my gosh, I misread my own freakin guide lol! (That’s what I get for responding on my phone).
You’re right, both her LK and EX Kazegiri are 5 frames, and with her 1 frame fast wakeup you must safe jump them as if they were 4 framers. Her normal Kazeigiri kicks lack invincibility, but the EX was not listed on the frame data. (Actually her whole notes section is left blank on the frame data).
After doing a lot of digging in the Ibuki and using the search tools thoroughly, I could not find any mention of how many frames it has. Someone asked in the Ibuki Q&A section, but nobody answered, so I’ve reasked the question. Hopefully we’ll get a response (this is like pulling teeth :P)

21

I’ll look for the ibuki pdf guide I have it somewhere…

[edit] Nothing said on Izuna Guide, and whatever, all we need is to know that it has invincibility after all.

22

Update:
According to Ibuki user MingoDynasty:
"Tested vs Ryu’s EX dp as a meaty: Ibuki’s EX Kazegiri has 7f of invincibility."
Good enough for me I guess, haha.

23

Couple things:

  1. You should keep wakeup timing and reversal startup separate. Characters with faster wakeup timing does not affect their reversal startup. Both are important when finding oki setups, but there is no correlation between the two.

  2. You should only include reversals (or specials, actually) that have some sort of invincibility, as generally speaking, those are the only things you have to worry about when safe jumping/doing setups.
    eg: Dudley might have a 4f regular dp, but it is absolutely useless to jumpins/meaties because it has no invincibility at all; he’ll just get (counter)hit everytime he tries it. Being worried about something like that would be like worrying about your opponent doing wakeup jab.

  3. Making a list of everyone’s wakeup timing is going to take a LOT of testing (if it’s not already listed somewhere?). It’s not as simple as saying Cammy/Sagat/etc. have different wakeup timings, because in fact, they can have the same (or even more different) timings in other knockdowns.

The proof I have is that I’ve done a lot of testing with Ibuki’s safe jumps (and lots of other things about her), documented here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqClL3kJPchYdFlDd0VhMmt4R0w3TVdJQ2hHX29GLUE#gid=9

Something I should point out is that not every untechable knockdown is the same. You have to take into account whether your opponent’s feet are pointing towards you or away from you, and if they’re faced down or faced up. There are a couple exceptions I’ve come across, but those are generally the 4 types of wakeup timings (per character!) you have to deal with.

Addendum: I disagree with the theory that Ibuki wakes up 1f faster than any other character. Ryu can cr.HK and immediately jump and it’ll be a frame perfect safe jump on Ibuki, just like it is with almost the entire cast. But then again that is only one type of knockdown, so perhaps she does have a different wakeup timing for her other knockdown types.

24

Indeed, some characters have different wakeup times to akumas utk’s, but IMO you shouldn’t use Ryu’s sweep as an example, not against Ibuki anyway, since it’s a brainless 4f sj and even if ibuki woke up 1f earlier, would still safejump anything she throws out.

To test each utk against her, jump 40f before she recovers. If it whiffs she wakes up normally, if it hits, it’s a 4f safejump. For example after df grab, whiff fs.hp, j.hk.

25

we need to also list the setups for x-framers (setups for 5 frame reversals, 6 frame reversals, etc.)

26

I’m currently working on that in my guide to Akuma. As far as basic setups go anyways… I’m still contemplating how much character specific setup info to include.
In my guide I’m basically going to ask readers to look at the reversal data, see if that reversal has invincibility, then factor in the character wake up timing to determine if they can safe jump the character using a set up.

For example, they see Cammy’s got a 5 frame DP with invincibility, she gets up 2 frames slower on a forward throw knockdown, so a 7 frame safe jump like f. throw, dash x 2, j.HK should work on her. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that setup though lol, I still have to get around to testing these damn things before putting them in my guide :/)

27

I agree that character wake up timings need to be listed separate. I’ve deleted my two parenthetical notes on Blanka and Cammy safe jumps that I originally put in there (they were from my own personal notes and they were me just thinking out loud rather than concrete advice).

A few things I’d like to do with my guide:
[LIST]
[]Make it a complete listing of reversals, but leaving out erroneous specials that nobody would use on wake up. Unfortunately I felt bad leaving out data on the non-EX reversals that lacked invincibility, so I included them just in case players assumed certain specials had invincibility (for example with Dudley they might know that EX uppercut is the best special with invincibility but they may not know that about the others, so this is why I listed the other strengths of these specials just so they would know they are not viable options).
[]Make a separate list of supers and ultras.
Honestly I only wanted to include Vega’s ultras on here since his wake up options are so bad that sometimes it seems like they can only resort to Ultra to catch sloppy safe jump attempts. I also didn’t include teleports or escape options on here originally, but that may be something I would include in a separate list.
I threw in Akuma’s 1 frame super as a placeholder in the original categories that I made, and honestly it shouldn’t be there since it’s not ever going to be used, but perhaps when I make my separate list of super/ultras it will be there just for the sake of dispelling all myths about super/ultra properties.
[*]Include a separate list of character wake up timings, so Akuma players can calculate safe jumps in their heads for each set up (like I did with my Cammy example with Volcanic Akuma).
[/LIST]
As far as wake up timing info:
To the extent of my knowledge, all characters get up from a sweep hard knockdown with the same timing except Ibuki (1f faster), Cammy/Sagat (1f slower) and Blanka (2f slower).

When it comes to throws there are more exceptions. For example, Akuma and Yun’s forward throws both cause Cammy to get up 2 frames slower, and they both cause Sagat to get up 1 frame slower. However Ibuki will get up 1 frame faster with Akuma’s throw, but she will get up 3 frames faster from Yun’s throw.
Basically, for post-throw okizeme you just have to manually test everything yourself to figure out wake up timings.

Akuma’s pretty easy to remember though since his demon flip grab, sweep, and SRK FADC Shaku all cause the same kind of knockdown timing. It’s only his forward throw that you have to worry about.

This might only be the case because he causes the characters to all end up facing the same direction. I’ve heard, from the SRK wiki that “untechable knockdowns send the opponent into either the face up/down position, both have different wake up timing depending on character.” So going off of that I would assume that other characters such as Ibuku may have sweeps or other untechable knockdown setups that create different wakeup timings based off of the direction they face on the ground.
I’m pretty sure Ibuki gets up 1 frame faster, but I can try to do some testing tomorrow when I get a chance to see if the data matches setups for different characters (I will be using Akuma and Ryu to test this out btw).

28

super is 0 frame startup

29

It’s been a while since I’ve posted around these forums because I moved apartments and didn’t get much time to do that, my DSL connection will finally be installed in a couple of days so I’ll be able to catchup with you guys then.

Anyway, here’s the list I’ve made regarding the abnormal wakeup times a very long time ago, note that Ibuki only gets up a frame faster after forward throw, it’s normal after the rest of the mentioned knockdowns:

Any character that’s not mentioned in the list has Normal wakeup time, e.g Ryu.

A few notes:

  • I’ve tested every single of these knockdowns back in SSFIV so this is not based on any shared general character wakeup times or guessing stuff, they’re only related to Akuma’s knockdowns.

  • I didn’t recheck all these knockdowns after AE and AE v2012 were released, but so far they’re all the same and I’ll believe that’s the case until someone proves me wrong.

  • Yun, Yang, Oni & E.Ryu had normal wakeup times after I checked them when AE was released.

  • I didn’t test the Ultra knockdowns because they take too long, regular knockdowns took long enough!

  • Backthrow is a garbage knockdown so testing it vs all character felt like a waste of time to me so I didn’t check it.

  • This list doesn’t include any abnormal neutral stances that have invulnerability frames, i.e Gen’s wakeup time is normal, but if the Gen player leaves the stick on neutral when he wakes up he’ll have extra invulnerability frames that will make the meaty jump-in attack whiff. IIRC other characters that have this effect but they’re not as bad as Gen are Fuerte, Chun and Guy. Adon & Yang also had this at some point but I’m not sure if those were fixed with v2012 and patches.

As for the other subject (reversal times), IMO only invincible reversals that can actually be used on wakeup should be mentioned and exclude anything that’s still free vs Meaty jump-ins because they’re simply not invincible even though they’re fast, i.e All of Vega’s ST including EX have 0 invincibility frames, you can stuff it for a full combo with a meaty jump-in attack.

The list would be neater if it’s only related to invincible attacks that can be used vs jump-ins, IMO at least.

30

I can’t safe jump (j.hk) Chun after a f.throw dash x2 against her Ex BK.
1 hour on training room and no dice. I’m not good enough or I missed something ?

edit : even Sagat reversals beat me on my recovery. It’s supposed to be active 2 frames after my recovery end.

31

After the forward throw nerf in v2012 (added 2 recovery frames) Akuma can only safejump these after forward throw x 2 dashes j.hk:

7 frames and slower reversals vs characters with normal wakeup time
6 frames reversals vs characters who wakeup a frame slower
5 frames reversals vs characters who wakeup 2 frames slower such as Cammy’s Canon Spike

Chun wakes up normally and her EX SBK is a 6 frame reversal so you can’t safejump it anymore with that setup.
Sagat does wakeup a frame slower, but his upper cut is 5 frames so you also can’t safejump it with the setup.

32

I can do the math, but I had a wrong start point thinking before nerf our double dash HK was a 3f setups for regular wake up time.
Damn and thanks for the clarification. I wonder why I kept thinking this for that long.