the key number is how many frames we have after the f.throw recovery end and before opponent reversal frame. Same for sweep, DF throw, shaku, back throw.
As a side note, it seems Akuma’s back throw is often looked down upon and neglected in favor of his forward throw. I personally use safe palms and ambiguous demon flip shenanigans sometimes, and the opponent seems to be less aware of them compared with forward throw. Who’s to say there aren’t unblockable set ups off his back throw, or perhaps characters wake up a frame earlier or later when compared to other knockdowns? (Fei long has an effin safe jump against shotos off of his, and we all know how many other characters have unblockables after their back throws).
If anyone has data on his back throw for set ups or character wake up times, please feel free to share here or in the AE 2012 set up thread!
Circus
8
No kidding? Hasn’t fucked up anyone’s meaty timing on me. Good to know though.
I’m not sure what the subject of your sentence is; what hasn’t fucked up anyone’s meaty timing on you?
And if you’re referring to a wake up attack they are performing, then how does an opponent get meaty timing when you’re safe jumping them? (I’m well aware of a what a meaty is btw ;), I’m just curious what you’re referring to here)
he main Ibuki and thought she had a normal wake up timing.
Rikudou
11
Sorry to burst your bubble, but b.throw IS ass. You only get 34 frames advantage, which can only safejump 9f reversals, so forget about unblockables, because it gives them enough time to simple walk out of anything you attempt. Just use ground pressure instead.
Vulpes
12
Juri’s Ex Counter is also a 1f reversal.
Rikudou
13
Also useful if you didn’t know already, I’ll give you my selfmade list containing normals framecounts, frame advantage after KD’s and chained normals framecounts.
Frame data: startup-active-recovery—total
Cs.lp. 4-2-6—11
Cs.mp. 3-2-13–17
Cs.hp. 4-2-26–31
Cs.lk. 5-2-7—13
Cs.mk. 5-2-14–20
Cs.hk. 6-2(4)4-17-31???
Fs.lp. 3-2-5----9
Fs.mp. 4-2-13–18
Fs.hp. 6-3-16–24
Fs.lk. 3-2-8—12
Fs.mk. 9-2-13–23
Fs.hk. 8-2(8)2-16-34???
Cr.lp. 3-2-7—11
Cr.mp. 4-3-9—15
Cr.hp. 6-4-23–32
Cr.lk. 4-2-9—14
Cr.mk. 5-3-13–20
Cr.hk. 6-3-24–32
Throw. 3-2-20–24
OH. --37
Frame advantage
Sweep 45f
Ex fb. ± 45f
Hp shaku ± 45f
F.throw 72f
B.throw. 34f
Df.throw 64f
U1 58f
Chains
Cr.lk xx cr.lk—19
Cr.lk xx cr.lp—16
Cr.lk xx fs.lk—17
Cr.lk xx fs.lp—14
Cr.lk xx cs.lk—18
Cr.lk xx cs.lp—16
Cr.lp xx cr.lk—18
Cr.lp xx cr.lp—15
Cr.lp xx fs.lk—16
Cr.lp xx fs.lp—13
Cr.lp xx cs.lk—17
Cr.lp xx cs.lp—15
Cs.lp xx cr.lk—19
Cs.lp xx cr.lp—16
Cs.lp xx cs.lp—17
Cs.lp xx cs.lk—18
Thanks for the list, Rikudou. I was actually going to write down the whiff timings tonight, so perfect timing! Haha
I messaged LoyalSol a few days ago about this to make sure I was calculating it right, but it seems your list confirms my method of calculating whiff data (assuming total frames are what you use for whiffing normals on setups).
I’m actually including a section in my guide about using training mode to test set ups, so I’ll be sure to give you credit for your list. (Also if you want, you could glance over my draft of the guide for that section that would be greatly appreciated).
Circus
15
I main ibuki. The safe jump/meaty jump timing needs to be changed for the different wake up times. Not by much obviously but 1 frame can mean a the difference between landing an attack and getting smacked with a reversal. That 1f hasn’t fucked anyone on their meaty attacks on me.
I guess double dash jump hk the safe jump against 5 framers is the one they use on your Ibuki after f.throw.
This setup works on 5f but 6 framers too I assume with the several active frame of the hk so She’s like a 6 framer with normal wake up (7f reversal - 1f wakeup).
I forgot you mained Ibuki when I wrote that, but now it makes sense 
@Shabrout I think you misread; Ibuki’s LK and EX dragon kicks are 6 frames, not 7. So Ibuki gets up 1 frame faster, meaning they have to safe jump her as if she was a 5 framer w/ normal timing (not a 6 framer as you said). I believe you are right though and this why nobody has problems with their meaty timing on ibuki, since most people safe jump with a j.HK that hits meaty and recovers in time to make 5 frame reversals whiff.
yep that’s what I meant Funny thing is I have a hard time safe jumping her on training mode, It’s probably cause I fail the instant dashes. I’ll check this again.
Correction about Ibuki, lk and ex Kazegiri are 5framers, with her 1frame faster wakeup that make them 4framers. I can beat the lk one with double dash j.hk but because of hitbox. Th eex version blow me like it should wirth his invincibility. By the way how many frames invincinbility ex Kazegiri have ?
Oh my gosh, I misread my own freakin guide lol! (That’s what I get for responding on my phone).
You’re right, both her LK and EX Kazegiri are 5 frames, and with her 1 frame fast wakeup you must safe jump them as if they were 4 framers. Her normal Kazeigiri kicks lack invincibility, but the EX was not listed on the frame data. (Actually her whole notes section is left blank on the frame data).
After doing a lot of digging in the Ibuki and using the search tools thoroughly, I could not find any mention of how many frames it has. Someone asked in the Ibuki Q&A section, but nobody answered, so I’ve reasked the question. Hopefully we’ll get a response (this is like pulling teeth :P)
I’ll look for the ibuki pdf guide I have it somewhere…
[edit] Nothing said on Izuna Guide, and whatever, all we need is to know that it has invincibility after all.
Update:
According to Ibuki user MingoDynasty:
"Tested vs Ryu’s EX dp as a meaty: Ibuki’s EX Kazegiri has 7f of invincibility."
Good enough for me I guess, haha.
Couple things:
-
You should keep wakeup timing and reversal startup separate. Characters with faster wakeup timing does not affect their reversal startup. Both are important when finding oki setups, but there is no correlation between the two.
-
You should only include reversals (or specials, actually) that have some sort of invincibility, as generally speaking, those are the only things you have to worry about when safe jumping/doing setups.
eg: Dudley might have a 4f regular dp, but it is absolutely useless to jumpins/meaties because it has no invincibility at all; he’ll just get (counter)hit everytime he tries it. Being worried about something like that would be like worrying about your opponent doing wakeup jab.
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Making a list of everyone’s wakeup timing is going to take a LOT of testing (if it’s not already listed somewhere?). It’s not as simple as saying Cammy/Sagat/etc. have different wakeup timings, because in fact, they can have the same (or even more different) timings in other knockdowns.
The proof I have is that I’ve done a lot of testing with Ibuki’s safe jumps (and lots of other things about her), documented here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqClL3kJPchYdFlDd0VhMmt4R0w3TVdJQ2hHX29GLUE#gid=9
Something I should point out is that not every untechable knockdown is the same. You have to take into account whether your opponent’s feet are pointing towards you or away from you, and if they’re faced down or faced up. There are a couple exceptions I’ve come across, but those are generally the 4 types of wakeup timings (per character!) you have to deal with.
Addendum: I disagree with the theory that Ibuki wakes up 1f faster than any other character. Ryu can cr.HK and immediately jump and it’ll be a frame perfect safe jump on Ibuki, just like it is with almost the entire cast. But then again that is only one type of knockdown, so perhaps she does have a different wakeup timing for her other knockdown types.
Rikudou
24
Indeed, some characters have different wakeup times to akumas utk’s, but IMO you shouldn’t use Ryu’s sweep as an example, not against Ibuki anyway, since it’s a brainless 4f sj and even if ibuki woke up 1f earlier, would still safejump anything she throws out.
To test each utk against her, jump 40f before she recovers. If it whiffs she wakes up normally, if it hits, it’s a 4f safejump. For example after df grab, whiff fs.hp, j.hk.
we need to also list the setups for x-framers (setups for 5 frame reversals, 6 frame reversals, etc.)
