People misunderstand the change to backdashes for AE. Currently, only 1 or 2 characters in the entire game have non-airborne backdahes and I believe it’s ken and sim or something of the sort. What that means is most characters backdash is
What this means is that the two characters who are special get messed up more by certain setups because they get hit grounded which leads to all kinds of throws and hit confirms. These two are getting their backdash fixed and the rest is just a moot point.
these are the characters with grounded frames during dash.
gen, honda, gouken, dhalsim, akuma
only ones where u2 OS makes sense (unless dust alone would kill the opponent). so I’dnt try to get a habit of doing it. mk / lk ruffian is way more reliable. or delaying it without OS but while buffering it.
this is random but whos noticed:
if youre in close proximity to someone activating their ultra, the ultra feeze causes codys cuffs to be a few frames ahead of him(or behind?), floating in midair :looney:
Are you talking about AE only, or Super as well? Because in Super, just off the top of my head, I’m 99% sure Vega (Claw) is grounded for his entire backdash, or a very large part of it. Makoto as well. There might be more, these are just the two I’m most familiar with.
That’s not entirely true. It depends on the OS you’re using. If you’re using cl.LK OS U2, due to the time needed for the cl.LK to recover, the Ultra activation is naturally delayed, which lets it work on some characters with airborn backdashes, because they land again by the time the Ultra finally hits (the hit is also delayed by the fact that they’re no longer point blank, since the sand has to travel).
I’ve been wanting to test this against every character in the game, and make a list, I just haven’t had time to do it, even though it shouldn’t take long since you can just play the same recording over and over. But it really needs to be tested on a character-by-character basis.
The first time I saw cl.LK OS U2 (which was like right after I had the idea to use cl.LK as an OS) it was in a video against Viper, and it worked on her backdash, so I know it works on her for sure. Unfortunately, you have to have a decent read to use it against her because it gets beat clean by HP TK (hits the cl.LK). If she does EX BK it doesn’t work (I don’t even know if it hits her out of the air or if she hits you or passes through you or what, but either way you’re fucked). And if she does EX Seismo, she can actually cancel the seismo after the Ultra flash and then block the Ultra :shake:.
However, I’ve definitely used it against Flash quite effectively because I know some of his habits of where he backdashes .
dunno exactly, but those characters were the one where I was aware of grounded frames. Talkin about super here ofc. In AE everyone is considered airborne, aren’t they?
also: lol at handcuffs. this proves he still can take 'em off willingly ^^
The numbers didn’t seem right on this, and your explanation didn’t seem right either (no offense), so I just did some testing for a little while. Also, the difference in frames between cl.LK and c.LP is only a single frame of recovery less on c.LP (which actually makes the OS less effective – read below), so I didn’t test it with that due to time. It needs to be tested a little more thoroughly, but these results should be right with only a few mistakes:
Abel Y*
Adon Y
Akuma N
Balrog N/A
Blanka N
C. Viper Y
Cammy N
Chun Li Y
Cody Y
Dan N
Dee Jay Y
Dhalsim Y*
Dudley Y*
E. Honda Y
El Fuerte Y
Fei Long N
Gen N
Gouken Y
Guile Y*
Guy Y
Hakan N/A
Ibuki N
Juri Y*
Ken Y*
M. Bison N
Makoto Y
Rose Y*
Rufus N
Ryu Y*
Sagat N
Sakura Y
Seth Y*
T. Hawk Y*
Vega N
Zangief N/A
Y: Works easily
Y*: Works, but the timing is strict (your cl.LK must be delayed slightly, read below)
N: Doesn’t work. These are the characters that might need more testing, because for some of them the numbers say it should work, but i didn’t have time to test repeatedly. Realistically, it doesn’t matter at all, because even if it does work with a super strict timing, it would be too risky in a real match, not to mention almost every character has a reversal option that beats this OS anyway.
N/A: Means that the character has a funky hit box as they’re getting up and the OS isn’t even possible on them because you get a far s.LK instead of a cl.LK.
Basically, the OS has to do with one main thing: When the opponent character’s backdash becomes grounded again after the invincibility wears off.
Here’s the math, assuming your cl.LK hits on the first frame they wake up, and that the ultra activates on the first frame after your cl.LK recovers:
3 remaining active frames of cl.LK + 6 recovery frames of cl.LK + 7 start up frames of U2 = 16f
This means if they reversal backdash, U2 will hit them on the 16th frame of their back dash. However, depending on how far their backdash travels backwards, this could be more like in the 17-19f range.
Now, the major problem is that due to characters getting up at different speeds, etc, your cl.LK wont be timed perfectly on the first frame most of the time. However, this is fine because most characters have 8f of invincibility on their backdash, and cl.LK only has 4 active frames. So even if you’re 4f late of meaty, it will still whiff and work.
In fact, this delays the entire sequence which makes the Ultra hit even later into their backdash animation. Up to the 20+ frame (depending on distance of backdash). For the characters marked Y*, this is exactly what you need to do to get the OS to work.
On the other hand, if your cl.LK is meaty, you’re essentially speeding up the process, making the OS less likely to work on some characters.
The magic number seemed to be 19f. If the character is grounded before frame 19, the OS is easy to do on them. If they’re first grounded on frame 19, you have to delay the cl.LK, but it’s not that bad. If they’re grounded past 19, it gets progressively harder, or not possible at all.
Notes: Also, I tested it against a few specific things while I was at it.
Viper: If she does HP TK or EX BK, she hits the cl.LK, so you don’t run the risk of the U2 coming out and hitting her in the air or anything. However, if she does EX Seismo, she can cancel it before the Ultra freeze only. If she’s still glowing yellow when the Ultra freezes the screen, she’s hit.
Rose: Works if your cl.LK is delayed, and it will also beat EX Soul Spiral…pretty good against Rose actually.
Seth/Dhalsim: Works if you delay the cl.LK. Also works against their teleports if and only if you delay the cl.LK. If you don’t delay the cl.LK and they teleport, the sand ends before they’re vulnerable, and they recover before the first wrench hit.
Vega: Although I was able to get a timing where it worked against his backdash, that timing didn’t work against the back flips. Pretty useless against him.
cl.LK OS U2 works on all these characters, I just tested this now using the same setup for all to confirm as well:
Abel
Adon
Akuma
Balrog (you shouldn’t be getting s.LK you must be doing something wrong)
Blanka
C.Viper
Cody
Dee Jay
Dhalsim
Dudley
E.Honda
Fei Long
Gouken
Guile
Guy
Juri
Ken
M.Bison
Makoto
Ryu
Sakura
Seth
T.Hawk
Zangief
The cl.LK OS U2 doesn’t work on backdashes that are 22 frames or faster, where you should replace the cl.LK with the c.LP OS U2 to hit it. This should be used on these characters:
Cammy
Chun Li
El Fuerte
Rose
Vega
OS U2 does not work on characters with a backdash that’s airborne until the 23rd frame, that’s cl.LK or c.LP OS U2 btw. This means it doesn’t work against these characters:
Dan (Although the data says he’s never airborne he seems to be at the end of his backdash)
Gen
Hakan (both dry and oiled)
Ibuki
Rufus
Sagat
I’ve tested every character with the same cl.LK setup and it works on those I’ve stated and fails on the others.
Note: I got these results, which are very different from Hunters, because I’m doing a meaty cl.LK after LK Ruffian (an untechable knockdown).
The reason you are getting the results you are Hunter, is because of the setup. You must be doing cl.HP -> c.MP -> CU -> Foward Dash x2 -> cl.LK or another setup that is a techable knockdown. It’s an ok setup but it’s unreliable if the opponent doesn’t quick rise and it also makes it more difficult to use on certain characters because the cl.LK hits pretty much on its last active frame (hence why it works on the characters with a backdash 22 frames or faster).
If, however, you combo into LK Ruffian or another untechable knockdown you can get guranteed results 100% if the opponent decides to backdash or not (depending on the character of course). The setup I use seems more reliable due to the factor of a guaranteed cl.LK or c.LP meaty.
Not saying it’s wrong or whatever I’m just saying the setup I use is easier to use against all the cast it works on, you don’t have to vary the timing of the cl.LK you just have to vary the setup for certain characters.
An additional note is, c.LP OS U2 beats all teleports except Akuma. It auto corrects if they decide to teleport behind you and it beats far teleports as well. This includes:
Dhalsim
M.Bison
Seth (only front teleport, his back teleport has different properties to the others)
Vega (Both backflips)
For those reasons alone you can see that c.LP U2 is more useful than c.LK because it beats both backdash and teleport. AND, I bolded this because it’s very important and useful, if the opponent decides to reversal for example, M.Bison EX Psycho Crusher, then Cody just blocks and the U2 doesn’t come out. Same for Vega except the meaty c.LP CHs EX Scarlet Terror.
[media=youtube]uCslLvkywM0[/media] <-- There’s a video I made just now to show you guys.
First off, good shit on doing this much research with me, usually I’m the only one.
Second, yeah, I meant to mention which setup I was using to test. It was 2:30am and testing already took me over an hour longer than I planned, so I kind of rushed my post.
You’re right, the setup I was using was c.LP, c.LP, c.MP xx HP CU, Dash twice, cl.LK, which is why I was getting far s.LK against those few characters (which I knew about beforehand). The reason I didn’t test with an untechable knockdown is because I would never do that in a real match (except off a throw).
Since almost every character has another reversal option besides backdash that’s going to beat this OS, I’m not willing to sacrifice damage/stun just to set up (what is in my opinion) a “weak” OS (meaning it doesn’t beat all their options). Against basically every character, there are way better ways to pressure them as they get up to beat more of their options.
However, that aside, I still don’t understand how our results vary so much. In theory, the setup shouldn’t matter. All that should matter is the timing of the cl.LK in relation to the opponent waking up. The only thing I can think of is that you happened to make a recording where your cl.LK was fairly late-of-meaty (hitting 3 or 4 frames after they wakeup), which would make the OS delayed as much as possible.
Can you try making another recording that duplicates your results, and then test to get an idea of what frame your cl.LK is hitting on?
For example, against my recording, if Cody did reversal EX CU, the invincibility went through the cl.LK on my recording and hit me, proving that my cl.LK was meaty, or close to meaty. If your cl.LK is hitting even 1f after they wake up, you should wind up CHing the EX CU.
This is more just for the sake of understanding what’s really causing the OS to work or fail. Because there’s really nothing wrong with timing the cl.LK the way you are. For the cl.LK to be working the way you describe, the latest you could be doing it is 4f after they wake up, so that the last active frame of the cl.LK coincides with the last frame of invincibility on their backdash (this would generate the latest U2 activation possible).
This means that even in this “latest-case-scenario” the opponent would only have 1 frame to CH you with a 3f normal, and 1f to trade. Any timing faster than that, and the best they can do is trade, and that’s only if they have a 3f normal and time it frame perfect. So really, the effectiveness of the cl.LK if they don’t back dash isn’t decreased much.
Anyway, I love the fact that we’re testing this so thoroughly…too bad this OS isn’t more useful :sad:. I only find it strong against a couple of characters, or in the rare case you get a good read on someone’s back dashing tendencies.
The way I play this game I think it’s a sick OS. I’m not afraid to take a reversal if it means hitting ultra if you decided to backdash instead. It’s just how I play and I think because EVERY character can backdash it’s very useful, especially when you get in their head and they start trying to get away.
About the EX CU reversal with my recording I also get hit by it BUT you can make it so you don’t get hit. I believe the results I got were purely from my timing of the meaty cl.LK because I just recorded another one and I was able to hit Chun Li which means it’s just the timing of the meaty that allows you to hit or miss. With the recording I have now I wasn’t able to hit Fei Long which shows it’s the same as your timing, so it isn’t the setup used beforehand but the timing of the cl.LK that determines whether it works on certain characters or not.
With that said it would be too inconsistent to rely on using cl.LK in a match to get frame perfect timing so, I just use c.LP OS against the 22 startup backdashers and c.LK for the others.
And YES! Everyone should be testing stuff so we can narrow down to a nice solid conclusion.
To my knowledge, there’s actually about 7 or 8 characters that get up 1f faster/slower than average in Super. This is something I always wanted to compile a list on, because there isn’t one anywhere. Maybe I’ll do that sometime soon.
Anyway, Blanka is another character that gets up 1f slower than average. You can prove this by doing the back throw safe jump to him. Normally, Cody’s safe jump off the back throw 1f slower than a perfect safe jump. This is why it works against 5f reversals, but not 4f reversals. It works against Blanka, though, even though EX Upball is 4f startup because he gets up 1f slower, which compensates.
Another aspect of this is that I’m fairly confident that this also depends on whether the character is knocked down face down or face up. For example, I think some characters get up at the normal speed when knocked on their back, but when knocked down on their front, they get up slower/faster. But I’m really not sure about this.
However, you stopped quoting me at the most important part :lovin:
The “etc” was my quick way of acknowledging a bunch of other important factors. In fact, I’m in the early stages of making a short video about one of them: Criminal Upper knock down variations.
I’m not going to go into every detail here (I’ll save that for the video/write up), but the bottom line is: not all characters get juggled by the tornado the same way. Some characters bounce higher than others, and this creates more discrepancies in wakeup timings when it comes to setups (which is what I was using for my OS U2 test).
For example: Against Honda or Chun (and others – I’ll post a complete list with the video, hopefully before the end of the weekend), you can do a combo into HP CU and then hold up forward and get a guaranteed safe jump if they quick rise.
The only issue here (besides them not quick rising) is that quick rising is not a binary operation. It’s not just “yes” or “no.” There’s actually a very small window in which the player can quick rise. In other words, you can delay a quick rise very slightly.
99% of players don’t know about this, let alone do it, but it’s important to know that it’s possible, because if you’re using an OS off a setup like this where your safe jump is extremely meaty, you need to be aware that it’s possible to have the opponent quickrise, but your OS activate anyway, even though they didn’t reversal.
However, if you don’t OS anything, and just use the setup for a safe jump, you’re guaranteed success because it will be timed to be a safe jump against the earliest timing possible (which is what most players get), so even if they delay their tech you still land and are safe (although your jump in may whiff).
And as yet another side note, this CU juggle thing is also why certain characters can be juggled by LP CU -> EX CU in the corner, and others cant. Again, I have a full list of this that I’ll be posting with the video.
Double post, but don’t care. My posts are long enough to justify 2 in a row.
:lovin:
Oh nice. Good shit. I had searched for this once before, and didn’t find anything about it. Now I don’t need to test it myself :wgrin:.
Also, I’m not home right now to test, but that thread seems to reinforce my thought about the difference between getting knocked down face down vs face up. The dude that tested tested with Ryu’s sweep and his L2 FA. I’m guessing c.HK knocks down face up while L2 FA knocks them down face down, since it’s a crumple. And you can see he gets different results for some of the characters depending on the knockdown.
This is kind of relevant to us because most knockdowns are face up, but Cody has a few that cause face down. I can’t look right now because I’m not home, but I’m pretty sure Back Throw (!) and EX RK (ground hit, not juggle) knock the opponent down face down. …Maybe not EX RK…I’m having trouble picturing it in my head, but it seems right .
Yeah I mean, like I said, I think it’s definitely strong and worth using against certain characters, but against others, it’s basically useless, because some characters simply never backdash. Like Bison. …Bison players don’t backdash, there’s just no need. And using this OS against him is kind of pointless because he has 6 (fucking stupid btw) reversal options, and this only beats 3 of them, which happen to be the 3 least likely ones (backdask, teleport, and EX Scissors). Another note against Bison: if you time your c.LK earlier rather than later, you’ll still get the U2 to activate if he does EX PC…unfortunately it hits him out of the air.
So yeah, long story short, I definitely do use it against many characters, I just wanted to note how we’re devoting all this discussion to it as if it were usable against the entire cast, when it’s really not due to the combination of (un)reliability and practicality against a lot of characters.
Agreed.
Agreed. Well, I mean, I agree with what you’re saying, but I still don’t understand why you’re referring to them as “22 startup backdashers.” It’s about when they stop being airborne and return to being grounded. Also, personally, the conclusion I came to was 20f. But that’s definitely preference regarding how you like to time the cl.LK and how much room for error you want to leave yourself.
Even if you know your opponent doesn’t know about delayed quick rise, he can still do it by “luck” more than a few times and fuck your timing, so Hp criminal upper “safe jump” can be pretty ass at times. Never OS during it.
I have some nice safe jump setups to share, I’ll hit the lab later just so I don’t forget anything and post the results here. Things like Ex Ruffian, whiff sweep, hold up, j.mk. IIRC it even works against Ryu’s DP cause it can’t reach Cody, but Cody’s attack will reach Ryu if he blocks.
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