hey thanks for that MLC link again, it’s really helped out. Anyone have any tips on learning how to write kanji? additionally, anyone willing to be a conversation partner? or know of a place where I could arrange that at least.
You’re welcome. Glad I could help! In my opinion the best way to learn how to write Kanji is to keep writing and remember to write the kanji, not to draw the kanji. Learn the stroke order. This way, your writing will be cleaner and not look like a 5 year old. Also, there’s the additional benefit of being able to write kanji on your palm with your finger like every other Japanese (which is actually more useful than you might think).
Generally (there are exceptions), stroke order goes like this:
1. Write from top to bottom, and left to right. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/%E4%B8%89-order.gif/40px-%E4%B8%89-order.gif
2. Horizontal before vertical http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/%E5%8D%81-order.gif/40px-%E5%8D%81-order.gif
3. Character-spanning strokes last http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/%E8%81%BF-order.gif/40px-%E8%81%BF-order.gif
4. Diagonals right-to-left before diagonals left-to-right http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/%E6%96%87-order.gif/40px-%E6%96%87-order.gif
5. Center before outside in vertically symmetrical characters http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/%E6%B0%B4-order.gif/40px-%E6%B0%B4-order.gif
6. Enclosures before contents http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/%E5%9B%9E-order.gif/40px-%E5%9B%9E-order.gif
7. Left vertical before enclosing http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/%E5%8F%A3-order.gif/40px-%E5%8F%A3-order.gif
8. Bottom enclosures last http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/%E9%81%93-order.gif/40px-%E9%81%93-order.gif
9. Dots and minor strokes last http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/%E7%8E%89-order.gif/40px-%E7%8E%89-order.gif
If you aren’t sure which kanji to practice, go for the Jooyoo (Everyday Use) Kanji – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_jōyō_kanji
If you want to know how to write the different styles of kanji (kaisho 楷書, gyosho 行書, sosho 草書) I can give you some tips but the best way is to have someone physically with you teaching you how to do it.
If you don’t care so much for writing and just want to learn to read kanji, I say it’s better to learn from children’s comics (they have the kana above the kanji) and from signs, etc. than to just try to memorize them individually. The reason for this is, when you learn kanji this way, you learn them in context so you will know which reading to use for what situation. Yes there are general rules for when to use onyomi and when to use kunyomi, but there are a shitload of exceptions, and even native speakers don’t know how to read a character without prior knowledge (ie. names). Also, some kanji have multiple onyomi/kunyomi readings. When Japanese read a book/newspaper, they mainly recognize the words, rather than the individual kanji.
Hope that helps.
good stuff wintermute
i used to write kanji so well back then but then i started doing more work on the computer where i just need to know how the word sounds and read the kanji so im slower now… writing shorthand kanji to take notes during lecture… feels good. lol
Yeah I have been making sure to write the kana is stroke order as well and I can really see why it helps. I’ve noticed several of those rules you listed just from doing that with the kana as well.
I’ve heard of the jouyou, I was moreso asking if there was any resource that talked about specific stroke order, or maybe even some sort of lesson structure like in the MLC resources. I don’t really have anyone here that can actually teach me in person and I don’t have the money to go to college to learn it or something. Just from the rules you gave me I could probably figure out how to do most of the kanji on that list, EVENTUALLY, but then you yourself said there are exceptions.
Anyway, I would like to be able to both read and write them, because to be honest I feel like it’d be way to hard to remember complex kanji “phrases?” just cold. I’ve noticed that writing things down makes it a lot easier to remember because you remember with not just your brain, but you hands as well.
Hehe, I hear ya there man!
HFX makes a very good point for beginners to take note: I think with computers it’s better for beginners to focus on reading over writing because, as you said, they just need to know how the word sounds and how to read the kanji. Makes things a little less ‘overwhelming’, for sure.
Gasaraki, have a look at these sample practice sheets. ( http://www.coscom.co.jp/japanesekanji/kanji04_writing.html ) – They show the stroke order. I’ll try to find a more complete set for you (these only have 555 kanji) if you like these. I can go into more detail over stroke order, with the exceptions etc. as you like. If you want to do straight repetition drills, sheets like this are how Japanese kids learn kanji in school. So, again, if you like these, I can try to find more free ones online or, depending on your budget, maybe we can arrange something where I can mail you some Japanese schoolbooks?
True, but I’ve watched so much anime in JP, and seen so many manga raws that I kinda already know alot of stuff. The issue is that I don’t always know the kanji written out even though if I heard the phrase I could probably know it, or maybe figure it out.
Well, I don’t want to sound overconfident. I know my vocabulary is on a really low level and I don’t have a deep understanding of sentence structure yet, I just have a general grasp on it. Enough so that I can understand non-complex thoughts and sentences.
That’s why I actually want to learn to write it, so I’ll just know. I really don’t want to half ass learning it either.
日本語は難しいですね。
Thanks, I’ll try this stuff out. I was just going to do straight repetition, but is there another method you recommend?
Thing I’m worried about it just if it’s unwise to learn how to write outside of knowing what each word means, or what combinations of words mean.
I’ve heard that the way Japanese schools teach kanji is actually really inefficient, which is another reason I’m a little worried about learning straight from that list you linked.
I was thinking perhaps the best way would be to use what you linked me as a reference sheet, but then to learn the kanji in the order on the jouyou since it seems to be organized in a way where related kanji(as far as writing goes) are near each other. Do you agree?
Sorry for all these possibly overwhelming questions, I’m just trying to figure out the most efficient way to learn kanji before I just jump in.
as for budget, I don’t really have any lol.
My comment on learning kanji in context instead of just memorizing them means exactly the same as when you said:
so I’m a little confused as to why you would mention that.
Yes, I agree. I wrote the part about beginners for the benefit of everyone in this thread (I don’t know your Japanese level). I didn’t intend for those stroke order sheets to be your sole method of learning kanji. All the materials I linked to are to be used to supplement each other. Learn the kanji in whatever order works best for your learning style.
I’m the type of person who needs to know why everything is the way it is. I believe that no two words are ever the same. (ie. rip/tear) even if the dictionary or textbook says so. I question everything. If someone teaches me something, I want to know all the different ways to use it, why we use it, 一度, 一同, 同一 etc. etc. This learning style is not for everyone. You need to try out the different materials and choose which combinations you feel you will make the best progress with, again, according to your needs/learning style/goals/etc.
If you want to try learning kanji by order of how they appear on the different JLPT tests try this link (these are not exercise sheets though, you’ll just have to watch and practice) http://www.yosida.com/en/kanji.php?level=5&page=1. It gives the meaning, the readings and an animated stroke order. All the links I’ve provided should be more than enough to give you a good start.
頑張ってね！
right sorry, I’ve been staying up too late so I wasn’t thinking clearly lol. Thanks for all the advice man, I appreciate it.
Ah, no worries. I’ve been there. Good luck with all that material. Like I always say, it’s not how long you study it’s when you decide to stop. So hang in there and you’ll get it sorted.
I think the biggest error I see in non-natives learning kanji is that they tend to measure the achievement of learning a word in stroke counts, and not see the kanji in parts. Like everyone said, the best way to learn kanji is to first learn (or be familiar with) all the common radicals that show up often in kanji and chinese alike.I’m on a friend’s computer without japanese Ex:sun, shell, bamboo, heart, water, girl, car, wood, farm, and person radicals-just to name a few- are all very common radicals, and seriously, knowing a little handful of these easy radicals and common parts will take you 10% the effort and save you at least 1/3 the difficulty it takes to recognize each Kanji compared to rote learning.
100% agreed.
Know your radicals, the more you practice the more you will understand the radicals and how everything comes together. You’ll then gain new kanji vocabulary even faster because you learn to better guess the meaning of new characters you come across. Again, stroke order is important for writing (not drawing) properly. The achievement is in understanding and being understood in Japanese. I don’t think being able to write kanji like 䯂 that you will rarely (if ever) use is an achievement at all, it’s a novelty. An achievement would be learning enough kanji to find what you want or understanding the 2,500 kanji used in newspapers.
I took the kanji kentei test because a lot of people said that a non-native could never do it. The achievement there was being able to say “fuck you” to those Japanese that said I couldn’t do something (I hate that). I never felt the need to make a website and say “Hey guys look at all the different kanji i can write for different types of birds or groups of horses!!! Will this get me laid?”
Gasaraki, here are some more kanji practice sheets as I promised. http://lernmaterialien.mkengel.de/
I’m still pretty horrible at Japanese but I guess I’m making inroads. In my free time I watch GitS SAC on Youtube (I think that series is down enough to earth that learning from that won’t make me sound too otaku) and read the episode transcripts over and over (and use a web translator extension like Rikaikun for Chrome).
I dunno, I have questions but I don’t really know how to ask them.
Taito, just keep at it man, you are making inroads. You might feel some days that you’re not making progress but you actually are. (You’ll just have to believe me on this).
Everyone is looking for the definitive ‘answer’ to how to become fluent in their target language. Here it is:
The trick to learning any language is be persistent and consistent in study. Immerse yourself. Change your OS to Japanese, listen to and watch Japanese music/video/etc. even if you don’t understand it - believe it or not, it does help! Just get stuck in.
My sons, if you want one easy mantra to guide you on your path to fluency then let it be this: “language is your kung fu” – Learning a language is like being a bodybuilder. You have to develop the muscle. You can’t get stronger just from reading a book, you have to expose your muscles to repeated effort to develop your body. Same with language, if you don’t use it, you lose it, and if you start ‘exercising’ again you’re spending a lot of effort just getting to the condition you were before you stopped. But if you keep at it, then you get leaner and meaner and then you find yourself being able to take on more difficult opponents with less effort. So stop buying loads of books and CDs to “put your money where your mouth is” if you’re not going to USE them. You don’t need to have every single resource out there.
Do.
Or do not.
**ゼロ涼しさ **
** ;)**
You can just write ゼロクール. “Suzushisa” refers to cool climate, so it comes out kinda weird in Japanese. haha
I dunno how I missed this thread before, but it’s definitely great. Wintermute’s kanji-stroke lesson is definitely one of the clearest ways of teaching it I’ve seen, props to him.
I’m far from 100% fluent/native, but I can speak/read it fairly well from the four years spent in Fukuoka. If I had to rate myself, I guess I’m past the old JLPT 2kyuu but my kanji’s a bit lacking for 1kyuu. I’ll be willing to help out too, though.
was that replying to me ? IF so thanks 
i cant say im pro at japanese XD
thanks for the materials winter, it’s really helping me stay focused lol.
another user was just telling me about http://lang-8.com/. It might be at a bit too high of a level for me but I’m trying it out anyway, and it can’t hurt.
Check out Heisig’s remember the kanji. it’s pretty good, albeit a different approach to learning kanji (which he put a lot of thought into regarding non-native adults learning kanji efficiently)
I already know about it but I really don’t want to spend money since I shouldn’t have to. And I don’t really have money to spare anyway lol