2501

I have never, ever, ever had cr. HK stuffed by a short dive kick. I HAVE had it trade, but oh no, you just took 70 damage and he just took 120, and you’ve got room to breathe now. Same thing with if you just plain old beat his dive kick with cr.HK, except you don’t even take damage. Don’t MASH on it. But look for places he’ll go for dive kick or throw, and hit it. There’s a reason why a lot of Gen players use this OS.

2502

The OS is supposed to be used when you think he might throw you, in order to punish a dive kick in case he doesn’t throw you, but dive kicks again.

Problem is… that OS only works if he dive kicks or throws. Because if he does neither, you’re at -16 after the c.HK and eat a massive punish.

Like I said, cr.mp is used in OSs because it’s safe on block.
Again: if a Rufus player stops for just a split second, you’ll do your OS and it’ll blocked and punishable. [not even counting with the fact that crane c.lk is horrible as well as a crouch tech, so it should always be paired with crane’s cr.mp]
It’s a bad OS, no matter if “a ton of Gen players” use them.

I’m gonna try and find Amiyu vs Rufus matches and see if I can take something from it.

2503

Personally I stopped using that OS because his dive kick comes out so fast and stuffs it. I just block and use EX Gekiro. Personally most Rufus’s have trouble staying on me. I can keep them out pretty good.

2504

i use the OS about as often as i would mash DP.

the rest of the time i just try to block and feel for throws.

i never crouch teching with low short in that match. too risky. youre better off guessing stand jab or jump back+button vs rufus pressure

wake up dive kicks are tricky. you just have to play the match enough so that you recognize which side he hits on

2505

Personally I stand so it doesn’t cross up as much.

2506

Congrats, you made him stop, that’s the whole idea - welcome to the next level of the matchup. If they change their pattern, you need to do something different too, which is going to have its own risks. However, I honestly don’t use the crouch tech c.HK much myself now. I came up with that OS back in vanilla, specifically because Gen didn’t have a real DP back then. The LK Gekiro works too now, and it’s arguably less risky.

You seriously overestimate the safety of c.MP crouch techs though. Do you know what Rufus players do against those? They do higher dive kicks that beat the c.MP in recovery, but then the higher dive kicks lose to jump back attacks and so on and so on

2507

Stopping for a split second is the same as blocking a reversal after a safe jump: those few frames where you held down/back and the game did the work for you.

Anyway, let’s go through that awesome OS either way:
cr.lk+lp part techs throws.
It only techs throws, if they try to throw you.
To throw you, they have to be on the ground.
If they’re on the ground and they don’t throw you but you use the OS, cr.HK comes out, it’s blocked (or stuffed by cr.jab) and you’re screwed anyway.

That OS is not good in any situation. Ever. It’s as good as doing a tech on reaction, and cr.hk when you think he’s going to jump. Mixing both up into an option select when they don’t work together? Useless.

With that out of the way, and you acknowledging that you don’t use it anymore, LK gekiro has low move invencibility. Everytime a Rufus dive kicks me and I use Gekiro, he beats me 90% of the time. The other chance I have is to HK gekiro, which clearly beats dive kicks. Problem is that if they dive kick, cr.jab cr.jab, and dive kick again and you use it too fast, it’ll whiff since they’re now a bit spaced, and HK Gekiro has no horizontal range whatsoever.

The only thing we can do, like Messiah does, is EX gekiro. It’s hitbox is great, and it has full invencibility. Also, decent damage. It’s just a shame how badly you’re punished in case you’re wrong. I’ve eaten target combos into ultra from that sort of guess very often.

So… after recording Rufus doing random different height divekicks with jabs and throws in between, I reached the awesome conclusion that Gen has no great way to stop them besides backdashing vs the short ones (and hoping the Rufus doesn’t do a simple OS to catch, which btw, even cr.jab does), and EX gekiro.
The other option is insane blocking, or my new favorite: throwing them after the dive kick.

It’s about as safe as every other option.

Jumping back normals are a completely idiotic option since everytime I try that, I eat normals during the jumping startup frames (dive kick (blocked) TC >Ultra (hits because I tried to jump back)). The only way to hit them is if I see full well that he’s doing a higher than normal dive kick. In which case I’d rather use s.MP, s.HP, crane c.HK, or even a HK Gekiro. Jumping back, in case the normal whiffs, is also a great way to eat j.HK into ultra or EX snake hands.

I’ve watched enough Rufus videos to notice that against divekick pressure you need at least one of the following:
a) Teleport
b) FADCable Reversal
c) Proper option select (oh, but it gets stuffed by higher height dive kicks… Everything has a counter, don’t limit yourself with that please; if high players use them it’s because it covers a large percentage of what they may do, and some of those option selects have enough active frames to stay out and catch average height divekicks as well)

If your character has none of the above, here’s the one thing you need:
a) Ridiculous blocking/teching skills. AKA Psychic powers, since you can’t tech on reaction (ask a friend, I know I have, and 50% of the time you tech on reaction is a pure lucky guess, although I did use to believe that you could tech on reaction, until I tried to show it to several people, and got burned for it (though I’m anxious to hear someone’s story on how they can do it, and they don’t give a shit about others weaker than them with no reflexes, yadda yadda yadda)) and you get punished hard for guessing wrong.

I’ve stated several times that Gen was a high tier. Not top, but high. I was wrong. Not because I’ve lost a few times, since I count for shit, obviously.
But because the inherent flaws in the character are vividly present in certain matchups.
Amongst other things that are very much alive in every match.
Something as simple as having to swap stances pre-emptively in order to anti-air someone with a cr.hk, only to then notice you can’t do it on time, so you block, but then you can’t risk crouch teching because you know that [c] cr.lk might come out and it sucks, so you press PPP to swap stances and that’s when they actually throw you, and you weren’t teching. Goddamn.

Gonna hide behind a rock now.

2508

Holy fucking shit you’re so badly misinformed I’m raging here. This isn’t even obscure stuff, this is standard info that TONS of players understand, but you don’t. I’ll start with the top:

First, safe jumps. A safe jump by definition is a jump in that’s safe against invincible wakeups, meaning it has nothing to do with crouch techs. Even if it did, you still don’t seem to understand it. They’re another kind of option select, and the OS happens when the jump in would make contact. One of two things happens:

a. The jump in makes contact, and the attacker’s just holding down-back while the game pauses during hit stop (there’s that term again!)
b. The jump in whiffs, and then the attacker’s holding DB while the opponent does a reversal, which will cause its own hit stop.
If people actually held down back AFTER the jump in (or reversal) makes contact, they wouldn’t be able to combo off a safe jump!

Next, the c.HK OS. Your argument doesn’t even make sense. It’s not useless, and you even gave the exact situation where it’s useful. If you go for a stand tech and Rufus throws, sure you’ll tech, but if he did another dive kick you’d lose; stand teching sucks against dive kick characters. If you had done a crouch tech+c.HK, you still would have teched the throw, but you’d also hit him out of the air. You’re probably thinking “what if he blocked?!” but why the hell is Rufus going to do dive kick into block? He wants to start his dive kick pressure, and he’s not going to stop until you give him incentive to do so.

I’m sure you don’t know this either, but crouch techs are meant to be delayed. The later you do it during the throw tech window, the more time you spend blocking, and blocking frame traps is basically a third layer to the OS.

LK Gekiro does not have low invincibility. It has 3f of full invincibility and 2 additional frames of throw invincibility. It also has an amazing horizontal hitbox and tons of active frames. If you try to treat it like a deep anti-air DP it won’t work, and it’s unreliable against frame traps (although sometimes effective). However, that situation you mentioned where Rufus creates some space and HK Gekiro would whiff is literally exactly how I would describe the perfect time for an LK Gekiro.

I don’t think you understand Rufus or dive kick characters at all. What’s going to happen when a Rufus player does two dive kicks in a row? Your stand tech will lose, and Rufus players do multiple dive kicks in a row constantly, far more often than dive kick -> block. Dive kick characters are especially likely to go for a dive kick after you block a high dive kick, because they know they’re at a disadvantage. Good thing OSs exist to punish repeated dive kicks like that. Jumping back works against them too.

Finally, no shit you’re forced to guess. That’s called playing defense. If you limit yourself to any one response, he’s going to punish you the next time. All you can do is stack the odds a little more in your favor, and cover the most likely combination of options the Rufus player might try at that given moment. Even characters that DO have teleports and DP FADC will play regular old defense against dive kicks a lot of the time.

p.s. you can tech and change stances at the same time.

2509

Theoretical, I’m no expert on the Rufus matchup and I’m certainly no expert on game mechanics (Yeb will humble most of us in that department) but I’d like to give you a few pointers after watching those Rufus games. Just from the perspective of “if I were watching replays of myself, what would I work on”.
1 - Think about how you’re using focus attack. Sometimes you catch Rufus with a crumple, but often it’s not clear what you’re trying to bait and you end up getting punished - especially when you let a focus attack go without making contact.
2 - Beware the lure of unsafe ogas. Yes, they sometimes work. But only occasionally, and the better the player, the more likely you’ll just get punished for them. They’re a bad habit and it’s better in the long run to force yourself to play as solid as possible.
3 - I see you’re often punishing with the BNB and using it effectively after landing a crossup crane j mk. Good stuff! But sometimes you punish with something like cr mk hands, or continue pushing buttons after your combo has pushed Rufus away, causing you to eat ex messiah. Here it’s good to work on consistency. Also, remember you don’t have to use cr lk, cr lp if you see the crossup j mk land - just st mp into the BNB (TC2, lk gekiro) or just the BNB can work as well (just make sure you don’t input gekiro if the TC is blocked).

Finally, just think a bit about how you want to play the matchup. You often start strong, rushing Rufus down effectively when he has no meter and you don’t have to deal with the threat of Ex Messiah. But later on in the rounds, you sometimes get impatient, attacking too much and doing jumpins that are easy to AA or go air to air with. As we’ve established, Rufus wants to divekick-mixup you to death, and when you get knocked down, that’s what you’ll have to deal with. Work on playing patiently and playing Sim style, keeping him out and frustrating him. Good players keep their cool, and maybe he does too, but in any case, you should. You’re the Kung Fu master, he’s the crazy biker.

2510

easy there yeb lol.

anyway the OS works. but like you were saying if you keep doing it(at least in a tourney setting), the rufus player will adapt and beat it if he’s good.

i stopped abusing it when a rufus i was fighting, noticed the cr.hk stuffing him, and started doing dive kick low jab, delay dive kick.then he figured out he could get a full combo if i hit him while he was grounded

its just a poor habit to fully rely on something of that risk level against a character that can stun you in 3-4 combos. thus plain ole defense. i just concentrate harder on controling him at neutral, and accept that i may only escape once if he does get in and start his BS

2511

This is why I was hiding behind a rock.

1- Regarding safe jumps: I know what a safe jump is. I didn’t make myself clear. I meant to say that “split second” is something small enough that it’ll make a huge difference in the game. Not like: “oh, he came to a full stop, so he lost momentum”, like you suggested.
That’s taking it to the extreme. If Rufus stops and baits a reversal, he’s not losing momentum. As far as I know, if I’m doing a blockstring and I stop because I sense a reversal, am I ruining the match for me? Am I?

2- “Why would rufus block after a dive kick”, because people have reversals, and he can bait them. I’ve seen Ricky Ortiz doing that, and Justin, and pretty much every top Rufus player. What’s your theory behind that one? No reason for Rufus to ever stop because they’re invulnerable? I’ve also seen them stop after a dive kick to bait a jump back and punish with j.HK intro ultra, like I mentioned, or EX Snake hands (with/without j.hk).

3- Taking the above paragraph into account, that OS is horrendous, yes. Because an OS is supposed to have two different outcomes in one given situation. If you delay that OS, you’ll do it while you’re blocking. In that case, cr.HK is pointless. That OS serves this purpose: “if he’s gonna jump, he’ll eat cr.HK in 5f. If he’s gonna throw, I’ll tech”. Great. But what makes an OS great is the relative safety (because everything is fucking relative) of it. You do that shit once, he decides to block instead of jumping or throwing the next time, and you eat an ultra. Or he can just TC > Ultra after the blocked dive kick for shits and giggles. Since you’re “delaying” the OS, you’ll eat that. Great.
An addendum: The only situation in which this OS gets screwed is if they block or do st.short (and your delayed OS gets stuffed if they so happen to delay their timing a bit as well). If this OS is only caught in the situations in which LK Gekiro is… Then why the hell would we even do this? I’d rather use LK Gekiro. It’s only punishable if they block. But if they have no reason to block, because they lose their rush… then it’ll always hit. And in that case, it’s better damage than 120 from cr.HK.

4- I thought LK gekiro only had low strike invencibility. I could swear I had read about that somewhere, but I’m obviously not going to argue about that since I don’t have any certainity about it (and can’t even find the source). You can ignore my remarks about using HK gekiro since I didn’t take LK Gekiro’s full invencibility into account. I apologize for having made a mistake regarding factual numerical stuff. I’m usually on top of that. Not the case today.

5- Guessing games are part of the game. But although I can read opponents based on patterns, their past/current behaviour, the way I trained them in a match, or just plain old obvious situations in which everyone will react the same way… although I can do that… I can’t guess random fast shit. If a Rufus player follows the same pattern with their dive kicks, great. If he’s completely unpredictable it’s ridiculous, and yes: characters with teleport or FADCable reversals have the advantage there. I’m not suggesting Gen needs one. If there’s one thing I’ve always told people who whine about their characters’ wakeup game (not referring to okizeme, ofc) is “learn to block/tech”, “focus”, “be patient”. That sort of stuff. I just so happened to mention that it is indeed harder for Gen, and a few other characters (like Abel) to deal with dive kick pressure.

There’s no need for me to link random Ricky Ortiz matches.
Go watch them to refresh your memory on how insanely hard it is to get out of dive kick pressure.
What I said makes sense. The solution is to not get caught in it. To be pre-emptive about it. Kinda like people whining about dying from a meaty hadouken chip damage. The solution is: don’t lose all your life + get knocked down vs a projectile character. It’s obvious. I wasn’t whining or even ranting. I asked for tips, the OS was mentioned, and I replied why it didn’t work.

I also just noticed that Mike wrote half my post in one line. But “I ain’t gonna delete ma shit” :smiley:

And thanks for the tips, Matt.
You’re on point.
I did Focus because I’m a moron. That’s the quick answer. It works against Cammy, but is an increadibly stupid idea vs Rufus. Sometimes I was trying to bait a normal, but it was a stupid idea either way. It’s not like Rufus plays the poking game very often.
Also: I can’t hit confirm crossups. I know it’s a horrible flaw, but I’ve practised that for a long time, and still can’t do it. Sometimes they hit when I expected them to get blocked and bait a mashed DP, and then I stand there, blocking like a moron, waiting to get thrown.
It’s good to know someone actually watched the replays and commented on them. Funny you noticed how I tried to attack like a rabid baboon when he had no meter. But I still got pushed back as soon as I jumped and he read it. And did you see how many times I got hit by cr.HP? Everytime I wanted to bait it, I never did. And everytime I wasn’t expecting it, I ate it. So bad.

2512

Thought this was a video thread :\

2513

Well, they ARE talking about videos VS Rufus.

2514

Kind of veered off into safe jump topic, but I guess that’s okay…

2515

is here any safe jump thread for Gen … i think we need to open a new topic and discover a new setups for more safe jumps !

2516

Yeah, sorry, all the Gen threads always blur together for me. I’ll keep it short.

You’re way too fixated on avoiding risks. When you’re in a bad situation like that, you NEED to take a risk to get out. Yes, everything is horribly punishable if your opponent manages to read you perfectly every single time, but people can’t actually do that. All you can do is try to get a better read, stay ahead of them, and try not to get too predictable yourself. If you find yourself in crane, the OS may be the perfect tool when you have a good read and get you out of that pressure. Who cares what happens if he’s looking for it next time? If he doesn’t get in again, there won’t even be a next time.

2517

But like I said, following that mindset, shouldn’t I be going for the Gekiro? If I happen to be in Crane I might as well try to tech+swap stance (you meant lk+PPP before, no? That never occured to me before, since I was imagining that [c] cr.HP would come out, but I guess stance swapping will… used to other characters)

2518

If you block a high dive kick and expect another one right away, you may not have time to change stances and still punish it. A crouch tech stance change still has the usual 5f of recovery too, so it could lose when the c.HK would trade.

2519

Im in Amsterdam till friday for an IT day / christmas party.I wont be able to download the update till i get back, dam it!! … so i keep stalking this forum for info and hopping someone make a video of his new fadc roll combo. “hint …cough … hint” :-p

2520

Amiyu just being well… Amiyu…

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