Alright, so the deal with cr.mk seems to be that it cancels on the third active frame rather than the first. That’s why it doesn’t combo into MP bolt even tough the frame data suggests that it would.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnqnU-fkHeE
I assume that cr.HP has weird frame advantage on cancel for the same reason, but on the 4th frame.
The thing where moves don’t cancel on the first frame is pretty common in SF5. For Karin it was extremely noticeable in beta 2, where a lot of normals only canceled extremely late, but they changed that somewhat in beta 3. I think it will be helpful to have a new column just for “when the cancel actually happens” in the extended frame data whenever people have the time to put that sort of thing together.
In SF4 at least, any move actually hits on the frame before the hit is visually represented onscreen. The final startup frame/first active frame is the frame before the opponent goes into hitstun.
Here’s some Ryu st.MP stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeWW0qU0xC0
It’s pretty safe to challenge with a st.LP after blocking. If he does st.MP, st.MP you’ll be out of range to link cr.MP, so you’ll either have to commit to a cancel into LP bolt or link super after the CH. If he does st.MP, cr.MP or cr.MK you can link into cr.MP. If he does any light but st.LP you’ll trade. His st.LP whiffs if you don’t challenge, and it only combos to cr.MK on CH against crouching attacks (which there’s no reason for you to do) so it’s pretty safe anyway. If he, for whatever reason, goes ham with st.lp, you can straight up beat it with st.LK, from which you can link super on regular hit.
It’s pretty dumb. They should probably make Ryu’s st.MP +2 on block, unless they think it’s a good idea that it’s so safe to challenge it. I think it’s sort of fucked how the guess isn’t in his favor even though he has frame advantage.
It really isn’t. Well, as long as the Ryu player isn’t mindlessly pressing buttons. I tried a few things myself and Ryu can take a tiny step back and whiff punish the jab with 4HK, which can lead into some nasty damage.
There’s too much pushback to link st.lk. Super might work, I don’t know what kind of start up it has. If he has to play around the fact that a jab blows up all his confirms from his primary confirm button, it’s pretty fucked.
Not sure what you mean by st.LK, this is what I’m thinking of:
That’s beta 2 frame data. It doesn’t work. b+HK is +4 now.
I’ve changed it, but the general idea in that footsies are still going to play their part here.
Yes, but my point isn’t that the jab is some kind of unbreakable defense but that it beats too many of his options that maintain momentum on block. If you want to play the wheel of options game you could’ve held back after blocking the first st.mp and whiff punished the second with cr.hp xx mp bolt for better damage than he gets off of his whiff punish, but again, that’s not the point. The game incentivises momentum, which means that options that maintain momentum are more heavily weighted, which means that the guess is not in his favor.
I played a lot of Laura in beta 3 and she’s one of those momentum characters with weaknesses that is never going to be top tier, but is fully capable of being really nasty when people make reads and take advantages of openings. She has a noted weakness to projectiles, with no easy way to bully them at most spacings. Her ex elbow armor doesn’t appear on frame 1 so you can’t just mindlessly blow through fireballs with it. Her anti air is questionable, with s. mp being pretty good against some moves and really terrible against others. Then you’re left with playing with fireball anti airs (which can be very good) and her qcf+fp which is situational. Air to air j. mk is good but everyone has a good air to air if you want to go that far.
Even though she doesn’t really play quite like abel, the comparisons to abel are relatively accurate, she’s looking for the same ideas and has some of the same weaknesses. While she can’t bully people with big damage like abel can, that’s not necessarily a problem because she has some better pressure tools to continue the attack that abel didn’t have.
Laura seems like a character that a player could get some big upsets with at a tourney, but would have trouble consistently winning with. Which is again similar to an Abel, Rolento, Fuerte, Dudley etc.
The one thing I’d like her to have is a link for when you catch people in prejump frames after LP bolt. Her lack of links on regular hit usually isn’t a big deal because it’s not too often you land a hit that’s not CH while pressuring, so non-ch confirms doesn’t add much to her game. It only really matters when you want to punish people who tries to jump away. cr.LP, st.LK doesn’t reach very often after LP bolt. Getting caught while in prejump is only spooky if she has super now.
edit: cr.LP, st.LK never reach after LP bolt against a standing opponent, so it doesn’t help against catching prejumps at all.
what about s.LK, s.LP?
Doesn’t reach and LP bolt only combos off of st.LP on ch
I was doing s.LP xx Lp Bolt all the time. Definitely works without CH. Was messing around with the CPU a lot in the beta and i would just exploit by doing s.LP xx LP Bolt over and over as they always get CH by the LP Bolt and since it combo into s.LP on CH i’d get a 3 hit combo.
What hiya said you can combo LP bolt from a s.LP or s.LK without out a counter hit.
I’m running the infinite beta and it doesn’t work. Laura’s frame data might be from the November stress test, but sweep cause CC so I don’t think so. Though that might be a system change so it’d happen regardless of frame data. Do you know of anything of hers that without a doubt changed between the stress test and beta 3 so I can check?
edit: fireball was -1 in the stress test and 0 in the beta, and it’s 0 in the infinite beta so the frame data should be right. Are absolutely 100% sure that it combos?
edit2: nevermind, it DOES work, I was just lazy with the cancelling and cancelled on a later frame. But either way, it doesn’t reach against standing opponents after LP bolt.
edit 3 motherfuckers: st.LP, st.LP does however work after some LP bolts! wooo, success.
If you really want something threatening from s.LP you can just do EX elbow. I think it’s worth it.
Whether or not two lights connect after LP elbow is actually character-specific (tested during beta), and probably also standing/crouching (untested.)
I tried it on most of the cast, and st.LP, st.LP worked after cr.LP, st.LK xx LP bolt against all of them, standing or crouching.
I believe Laura was one of the ones it didn’t work against, so I’d recommend trying that one to make sure I’m not insane/everything’s working correctly? I remember it because I was trying to figure what to do after LP elbow, and I originally thought that one jab would put you completely out of light attack range because I was training with a mirror match for quick access to recordings.
It works fine against Laura. This is after cr.LP, st.LK xx LP bolt. After stuff like max range cr.MK xx LP bolt, they’d probably have to be crouching for both st.LPs to hit.