I agree that buffer windows should be tailored to the game.
These are fighting games. Eventually, at some point you are going to have to take responsibility for your own timing. We’re all human and every game has to make concessions so we can keep up, either with input techniques or leniency from the game, but it has to happen some time. If a game has a certain pace and certain techniques in them then the buffer has to respect them. It’s also probably better safe than sorry, which means to a dev working on a game, I think the buffer should err on the side of being tight when reasonable.
You could still Kim Max cancel bu doing d, u + K, then inputting the neomax, but that’s entirely due to the fact that the game has more hitstop than any game I’ve ever played than anything else.
Even so, the game holds things into the input buffer for way too long. Best example I can think of of the top of my head to illustrate it would be Shen’s power up super, never learned the name of it, I always called it CABC after its input.
I’m not sure what the framedata on rolls are, but I know they take quite a while to happen, as Shen, you could input CAB and roll. After your roll recovers, you have time to walk for a very brief period then hit C and the game will still give you a CABC.
I’m not too mad about it, because with the long hitstop and huge input buffer, there are legitimate one button confirms if you buffer your followup into the startup of your first attack, the game gives you a significant amount of time to decide if you want to hit that next button.
But there are definitely situations where I get upset at just how long the game was holding onto a particular input and I get counter-hit out of a special I had no intention of doing, or end up getting a super in a situation where I was trying to throw a fireball. Also, walking fireballs are excruciating for this reason, but that can be alleviated by TKing the fireball.
I wish games allowed you to personally make the input buffer window as big or small as you like at the character select screen, with the added conceit that making it larger gives you a slight damage handicap (no damage boost for making it smaller than normal). Eventually this would give people an incentive to tighten up their game in order to apply more precise techniques rather than have to fight against a system rife with concessions designed around the abilities of mediocre players.
I understand the advantage of giving a comparatively larger input buffers in games that essentially revolve around counting frames (Tekken, VF and, for better or worse :rolleyes: , SF4), but I think it hurts games more than it helps when it’s not core to the gameplay.
A large window for specials makes it harder to obtain normals and other specials. Walk-up cr.RH/fwd xx Hadou should be in the heads of everyone: the easier it is to get a SRK, the harder it is to get a Hadou. In addition to it, you can consider the → as some sort of SRK charge/Hadou discharge move: as soon as you walk forward, you cannot do a Hadouken. SF4 is even more ass in that aspect: as soon as you start walking forward, you lose the move of walking forward again, since the dash comes out instead. You also lose the option of delaying a SRK to adjust its timing, since if you try the correct SRK command, its very first direction triggers the dash, and you eat major damage as a result.
Edit: LMFAO at OP implying that those stupid “damage collision boxes” (what a retarded name for a type of controller) are not only worse than ordinary controls, but actually brake games due to being too good.
I don’t know much of anything about how buffering works, but from the looks of what’s being said couldn’t some sort of limit to the amount of inputs on top of the time limit solve a lot of the issues people have with long buffering windows. I see in marvel 3, when people do combos and the have time, they do stuff ie: Dooms hop around for timing or even just meaninglessly during footdive combos all the time. Couldn’t a 18 or 20 input limit (perfect full 720 super = 19 inputs) be used so that a player with the drive to be perfect can wipe his own input slate with extra nonsense inputs before completing his combo? This way, exhibitionists can show off their execution while slower or newer players still have their time window. Also, I think this punishes mashing, but idk…
I think something like this exists already though, because with ryu when you walk forward into a crouching medium kick, you have to do a half circle to combo into a fireball. Doesn’t that mean that they already have input limits and shouldn’t part of this conversation involve what the input limits are for buffering? Or does that half circle do the trick for timing meaning that an input limit could be a plausible work around?
Technically, only his unoptimal corner loop wouldn’t be possible. But it’s the much easier combo and without it a lot of Kim players wouldn’t be able to do HD combos.
Well, yeah, the hangetsuzan B, FK, divekick, repeat is the one you’re talking about right? …Hmmm… Such a change might actually make that combo easier to do, now that I think about it.
Chaos Code has a 10 frame buffer and I am messing up 2xqcf motions when I’ve come from playing a game full of them for 8 years (CvS2). Obviously I shouldn’t treat CC like it’s a Capcom game but I see no actual reason for it to be that large. Some characters are legit messed up thanks to it in cases where you may want to walk up fireball or otherwise. Melty had that problem too, it’s buffer was 12 frames at one point if I’m not mistaken. Holy fuck I couldn’t even TK for the life of me.
I never said they break games, but that’s the complaint against them I’ve heard from other people. I’ve heard people who play VF say the same thing, but they are dumb, as being able to One Frame Kill on a Hit Box isn’t any easier than on a joystick or d-pad, and it’s been proven.
Didn’t know about the other games having even bigger buffers. I thought 10 was the most.
Concerning the other games. Would you say that it’s the developers making huge buffers and not taking extra care as to make sure moves don’t overlap as being the problem?
Still can’t (or am too lazy to) find the post, but I believe Mike’s formula for SkullGirls is, 4 frames for every direction, 4 for traverse (directions that aren’t adjacent to each other) and an additional 2 frames for the attack input. So a DP get’s 12 frames for 3 directions plus 4 frames for the traverse from :f: to :d:, plus 2 frames for the :p: input, for a total of 18 frames. Then again, I believe Mike does his input system for that game differently from how other fighters do it, allowing for this to be calculated by the system (or something like that, really wish Mike would post here now).
Depends on the size of the buffer. One that allows you to link a super after a CDrill just by hitting QCF+K is too big. What I’m thinking of is somethign that just big enough to eliminate the majority of 1 frame links.
I’m not sure what you mean, but if you’re holding forward, release and then tap forward immediately you won’t get a dash in SFIV. The only way to dash while holding forward is to do an immediate focus dash which has different dash properties. You also don’t need to hit forward at all to do an SRK in SFIV.
Fact is it does happen in the game: people just move their character towards, just after the enemy jumps in - by chance. You don’t have that much time to react in that situation, even if SF4 is sluggish. Now if you feel your character is not within range for the SRK and try to correct the potition, you dash, eat aerial + jabs + fierce + crap, etc.
I can’t watch that now, but even if it did happen it’s not a good example because it’s rare in an actual match. There is something built into the game to prevent that scenario from happening often.
A better example is the input window for charge moves. eg. You do a jumpin with Blanka while charging downback and you go for a cr.lk hit-confirm that you can to combo into Ultra or Super. If the opponent blocks, you go for the walk forward st.lp xx electricity pressure instead. But if you’re aren’t 100% with your inputs and timing, you’ll get a horizontal ball instead, even after you see your character walking forward. Now this happens in SFII as well, but it’s not much of a problem. In SFIV it can cause you to lose a match.
Regarding MotM - it doesn’t make confusing animations at all - it simply allows your regular animation to begin at any time. You blend out of your existing animation - not into your strike! Blending a strike animation would, of course, make things look pretty bad.
Imagine a left punch / right punch combo. If a player doesn’t do the right punch quickly, the left punch needs to come back, so it doesn’t hang out there stupidly. But if they still get their right punch input within the buffer window (we’re discussing longer buffer windows) then the left arm needs to come back up so that it flows into the attack animation. That’s the sort of procedural blend I’m talking about. Otherwise you need to build all of your animaitons to specific branch points - which means you can’t tune combos or create custom combos at all.
Player feet in 3D fighting games are often the most apparent place to see how much time was spent on good-looking procedural blends. Do the feet move sensibly? Or do they float and swim all over the place?