1601

But it’s still an HD combo. I got second at STA once and I felt as if I could have won if I actually did HD combos, even the simple ones. I didn’t even do drive cancels. The game requires the need of Drive and HD usage to win.

1602

Yes, I said it was “technically a HD combo”. Lets not argue semantics then, I wont use the term “HD” anymore.

I think, if you choose the right characters, it’s perfectly ok to not know any “fancy” combos, you can get by just fine with “basic” ones. (including the pattern I just listed.)

It’s not necessary to know “fancy” combos like long HD drive cancel looping ones.

I suppose it’s still a change from KOF98, where you could choose someone like Ralf and not use any combos at all, other than “two in one” combos like normal > special/super. But its not really a big deal, if I can do those simple HD combos then anyone can.

1603

What I argue is that it’s very annoying that what does big damage is mainly HD combos. The main issue is persuasion. Like I can keep playing solid KOF basics but that’s not going to persuade a bad player from trying to Kyo’s j.2C all day. And once they actually happen to land it, they could kill me. And if I do kill him by the chance that I did have HD and some Stocks, it’s not going to stop him from doing stupid shit all day since I already burnt my HD and Stocks.

It’s Street Fighter IV syndrome. The game’s general damage output is so low that people don’t become scared of most basics anymore and start committing to weird or stupid things and there’s nothing really there to persuade them from stopping. It’s like Dive Kicks, you could keep st. Jabbing them or getting lucky and could get a st. Strong or cr. Fierce, but it’s not going to stop them from doing Dives or being persuaded against diving. And then when you get hit by a dive, you’re kinda done. If damage output were better in singular hits or on the smaller stuff, the meta-game and the choices made by the players would be different.

So rather I should say that I don’t like “having to know even do general HD combos to win,” but that you can’t win with pure basics and simple bnbs when HD exists and that doing pure basics doesn’t dissuade bad players from committing to doing dumb things over and over again. It’s like XIII Arcade K’ j.D or Elizabeth’s qcf+A, just keep doing it until it works and land something big. Punishing a j.D with a st.A or hitting Elizabeth’s qcf+A with something like Kyo’s st.D won’t stop them from doing it unless you have HD, and when it’s gone it’s gone and they still have the chance to blow you up for bigger damage.

With KOF 98, Ralf’s far C does great damage, that’s the reason why it’s good. Like if it did 5 damage, people won’t give a shit getting hit by it all day while working their way in, they’ll keep hopping in without care. Won’t stop them from trying to hop in and the one time Ralf doesn’t do it because far C has weaknesses, the opponent will get in and run wild. The reason it can stop people from hopping stupidly or pressing something stupidly is because it does damage, and more so with Max Mode turned on. There’s actual means of persuasion against particular decisions and sense of development of “Yomi Layers.” Rather than keep repeating Yomi Layer 1 until it works since Layer 2’s damage output is so bad that it’s almost negligible.

With how the HD system works and with how little damage normals do, only about 1-4 instances in a match could make actual spacing and footsies scary on a grounded opponent because those hits can confirm into HD. Once it’s gone, they’re not scared anymore of actual spacing or anything because it simply doesn’t do “damage.”

So I don’t like that you need HD to win and that people aren’t going to change up and play smart because of it. I’d rather HD to be something that “could” be used to win rather than “need” just like how Max Mode combos work in 02/02um. In 02um, you could imply play a team such as K’/Hinako/King and not even do any of Hinako’s or King’s Max Mode combos and still win by a dominant performance. Then damage still works well that it is scary to be hit by King’s Far C, it is scary to be hit by a single command throw or a j.CD by Hinako. Simple basics are what should change the flow and decisions of the players, not only when something like HD is finally available. Then it’s already bad enough that HD is a separate subsystem from Stocks, at least 02um balanced how damage distribution works by having these cancel modes be tied with stocks.

It’s so tantalizing. The normals and special move sets are really well thought out in KOF XIII and each one has a deliberate purpose. In past KOF games there have been a few throw away moves or certain moves have redundant purposes but KOF XIII really takes it a step further and really tries to give each move a distinct purpose. Then that all gets bogged down by low damage.

1604

Well, if you say so. I dont play the game at a level to be able to comment on that kinda stuff. All I know is that, watching high level non-American play, you hardly ever see HD combos anyways. It doesnt feel like as serious a problem as you seem to suggest.

I guess you’re not really complaining about HD “combos” at all, you’re complaining that HD meter gives far too much damage reward, and the incentives/disincentives that flow from that.

1605

I see Drive and HD combos pretty often when I watch Japanese play and it was pretty much only Japan that had access to XIII Arcade other than a few places in the West. And Japanese play was dominated by characters that benefited the most from HD/Drive, were easy to play, and did the most damage. So you often saw characters such as K’, Raiden, Shen Woo, Elizabeth, Kyo, Iori, and Kula. Before the 1.1 patch, there was a bit more Takuma and Daimon because they could freely used EX Moves when they had 0 stock. Like how many times have I seen Raiden do Drop Kick into Drop Kick into EX Tackle DC Spit into a million EX Tackles or K’ doing his babby easy corner loop with HD or Shen Woo pull comebacks out of his ass with HD and j.CD counter hit fishing. Then zoning characters were almost obsolete. Even with the buffs in XIII Console, all they lack is damage of their ability to space and still don’t keep up with certain basic bnbs that other characters are capable of such as Kyo.

When it comes to Korea, they only touched KOF XIII when it came out on consoles, they didn’t have XIII Arcade. So they’re new to the overall dynamics of KOF XIII. But yeah, there’s a reason why when 02um and XIII came out in the arcades, that 02um got more play by KOF players. XIII has a lot of problems, many have been alleviated with the console version, but still has issues that wonk over the game and there are other KOF titles that appeal more to other players. A lot of people that “know” how to play KOF are often frustrated by this damage nonsense in XIII.

1606

the game is def. more based around getting a hit, but there are quite a few characters that can do a lot of damage from a practical anti air. just because you cant hit a single button to make ppl scared to do shit doesnt mean you cant at all

1607

*As a newbie KOF player I really enjoy the HD and drive system. I got rocked a few times by players that knew a hd combo with their anchor even though I dominated them for all of the round. It left a sour taste in my mouth but at the same time it showed me that I should know better optimal punishes when I’m fully stocked. From my experiences it doesn’t lessen the importance on meter management because on my low level I still have the question of “go into hd and get the character off the screen or use meter/drive for solid damage and set up a nice situation to finish him off”.

I usually play more footsie/poke based characters so I know the feeling of controlling the pace of a match for most of the game and capitalizing off of mistakes for solid damage. I also know the feeling of me messing up once or twice and having the whole match turn to shit from there. It’s a terrible feeling and it eventually made me improve on my offensive game. Being able to go on the offense more and force bad situations for the other person along with being efficient at the midrange game. *

1608

Ok, yes there may be some controversy with the damage on HD combos but I ask you guys this…

If you and your opponent both have the execution required to reliably to land HD combos but you have better overall fundamentals, shouldn’t you still win?

1609

Indeed, as long as every character can punish for minimum 80% of the bar, I don’t really see the problem.

1610

Because the issue isn’t that people won’t stop doing stupid things, encourages people to fish for combos than use fundamentals, and zoning characters are weak without it and have to work much harder just because of a subsystem.

It’s not as bad as other games but it’s still and issue and it’s the reason why other KOF games look more appealing to play than XIII.

1611

One of my beefs is some characters EX moves. I feel some of them sorta make the oki game a little more risky when they have meter…In past KOF games, when you are knocked down hard you either had to block correctly (or jump out of the way if they are trying to command throw you on wake up, a 50/50 guess) or roll at the right time to avoid a cross up. In this game some people just EX RISING TACKLE or wake up EX DP which is a solid (but risky) option, so it kinda makes me feel a little anxious when someone has meter. There wasn’t many supers or specials (or HSDMs) in previous games that had some of the properies a few EX moves have in this game. I feel it is a little over the top. So I guess I just have to know and remember and bait people more when they are knocked down and have meter to avoid it those crazy EX reversals.

I’m probably the only person that feels this way.

Beyond that, I love the game.

1612

I do agree that it limits zoning characters to an extent but you can always put them first to overcome that disadvantage

1613

I have no doubt Takuma’s damage is easy once you learn this BnB. But like I said :

I never could do this consistently, so I won’t bother. I prefer to learn the basics with characters I can land BnBs and HD punish 100% of the time.

1614

The execution of it isn’t hard, it’s just a timing thing. Here’s a trick, figure out the timing for the cl.C, f.B (there’s a bit of delay between button presses, you can’t just mash it out) and once you do that, once you hit B just go to [db]. When you think about it that way you’ll get the charge no problem. I can do it on pad and I am awful on pad. Justt keep in mind, the second you hit B, start charging.

1615

Seriously, I find myself playing the game like 2k2 with EX moves.

HD means nothing if you dont have good fundamentals to land a hit & execution to use it properly IMO.

Also, yes damage was a big deal for me.

Im use to playing OG 98 alot vs Kyos that stun you in 2 to 3 clean combos then end you with a Light Punch to Final Showdown. Or break your guard in a matter of seconds with proper rush down if you block to much and dont have the meter to blowback. Plenty of other characters that have the 3 combo to stun to DM tactic. However, I actually like the damage in 13 personally because it makes the matches longer and deeper.

My problem with the game is changes to some characters, & some characters are missing moves that i’m very use to using. Makes the game feel watered down for me. Which is adjustments I must get used to.

I feel you Des,

Wouldn’t wana say scrubby… but less harsh then 98 & 2002. Cant get stunned as quick, low damage, execution is a little less strict then it use to be in previous KOF’s for some combos, few small things here & there; but 13 still has that core aggressive feel to me which I love in KOF’s. ( Also, “I really think its just me"but the game feels a tad bit slower then 98”.)

But yeah all in all, the game is still lovely to me. I’m still making my minor personal adjustments to 13 from playing 98 & 02 alot. Like a ST player to SFIV lol. Been to busy lately to really buckle down in the game.

1616

Hey guys I have a problem that maybe somebody can help me with. Whenever I get a knockdown and go for something like an empty jump low or command grab I just get regular grabbed when they’re mashing on forward or back C/D. Am I doing something wrong and that’s why I’m getting grabbed. I’d like to assume I’m just mistiming the empty jump.

1617

They are using close C option select. See here for more details: http://dreamcancel.com/2011/09/16/fuzzy-guarding-tutorial-by-phoenix/

1618

First off, if they don’t tech, they are unthrowable for around 9 frames (can’t remember the exact number). Because of this, tick throws and command grab mixups don’t work quite the same way in other 2d fighters. To compensate for this, you have to delay your throw a bit. If you are getting thrown out of your c.b then your meaty timing is just off

1619

I noticed a couple people asked for team feedback here, can anyone weigh in on Elisabeth / Hwa Jai / Vice? I messed with Mature and Robert a little but those are the 3 I’ve been playing the most. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask. Thanks.

1620

I finally settled on a team and threw the whole battery slot out the window and just went with 3 characters I would each play in any position for maximum flexibility.