I don’t think yo understand what ‘negative edge’ means, if you think ‘negative edge’ can be lenient. A lenient negative edge, would be a game physically making your button go up slower after pressing it or something. Negative edge is just the ‘input’ that a game receives from releasing a button rather than pressing it.
Negative edge doesn’t actually do anything in KOF. You can’t input specials with the button release, unlike street fighter. All it does is repeat an input for specials and super if you continue to hold down the button.
My thing with the inputs now is that you have to be on point, unless you want to blow your meter on accidental Drive/Super cancels. So it promotes clean execution. Compared to past KOF games? Man, when I first played games like 98/00/02, I came from XI. I was able to do everything in XI. Hyper hops, hitconfirms, whatever. People said GG is “too hard” but I got down FRC’s with Sol/Axl/I-no. But playing 98 and 00 was a nightmare. I couldn’t even be bothered to fight anyone. In a match, I was just trying to get my moves to come out. I had so much trouble that with 98 Kyo I would do j.whatever>st.C>HCB+K instead of the Dokugami chain because I had so much trouble.
While I liked 98 more, I favored playing 02 because it wasn’t as strict. Execution in XIII can be a bit daunting but I’ve been training myself to hit confirm a single or at least two hits with every character I play. I like that the game is lenient enough for that. I have to get these shortcuts down. Annoying.
Haha, I’m the opposite. I could do what I want in both games but I hate playing against the top tiers in 02, that’s a nightmare. Rather deal with Emil’s Chizuru or someone playing a hella gay Takuma/Daimon/Ralf/Chang. At least the top tiers were Kyo and Iori and I can body people mostly with fundamentals. 02, oh baybee. I still play 02 on GGPO as practice against really random, bad play so I’d be ready for random rollers or silly tactics if I ever play in a tourney. I wish I could do the same for XIII, I’m not well acquainted with the new gimmicks that it has since online is so trash that people can’t even run real gimmicks and I win with EX Iori’s safe hop set up each time.
Yeah lol, i myself hate dealing with good Angel’s, Whip’s, & Ramon’s in 02 on GGPO. I hardly play 02 anymore though; I just stick with my 98. I play at least a half an hour of 98 on GGPO a day if I have the time even though I have 13. Just love the game.
However, hell yes (@ Hatred Edge) 98 can be damn strict on inputs. Doesn’t bother me much though after awhile. Probably part of the reason (besides HD combos & a few Cancel combos) in 13 I have little to no problems with execution.
@Laban: I meant to ask you, in your rule of two video, how are you hitconfirming with two crBs? Every time I try that in practice, the opponent is hit two far away to follow-up with stA or crA.
My execution struggles are more based around the neutral game than combos… mostly because this is my first KOF game I have ever played.Combos arent bad at all because the windows are pretty large and most of the cast has pretty easy hit confirms (well the ones I play at least).
Getting use to all the movement options (such the different jump arc, run, and other things that havent been in previous fighters I have played.) as well as basic things such as poking, space control, and pressure are where my troubles arise. When I jump I am always pressing the wrong buttons (usually press combo starters instead of air to air and what not) and I keep finding myself using pokes that I initially though looked good but really arent optimal. My pressure game lacks quality mixup set ups off certain strings or pokes as well.
I feel like I am gettting better though with my limited time playing this game… but I am nowhere near satisfied to how well I really understand and play the game yet. Sometimes the inputs can mess me up if I am in tense situation because I still have a bad habit of tensing up my hands and what not… but that is more of a personal physical flaw than anything else.
It also doesnt help that my schedule has gotten a lot busier as of late so my time toward this game is mostly used in the training room and online play. Online play can be very frustrating twhen trying to learn the neutral game because it feels like your character is never doing what thye should be doing and you cant really maximize damage too well even if you land a confirm. I really hope to be able to get out and play offline in bulk soon because I feel the training room can only help youtr neutral game to a certain degree… you need that actual vs another opponent experience to really fix and tweak what you are doing wrong.
I chain it quickly. I do note, though, that when I was recording Normal Kyo, I was having more difficulty actually doing it with him than with EX Kyo. The timing is stricter for some reason. I feel like I can’t chain the cr.B as fast as EX Kyo could, so it makes the cr.A chain harder than usual. I also make sure that I’m point blank when I do the 3 lights hit-confirm; it’s something that I can feel out as I do it. So sometimes I just commit to two most of the time like old school KOF.
With EX Iori, people are telling me to just do cr.B x2, cl.B, f.A xx Rekkas instead of cr.B x2, cr.A f.A since there are more low hits, damage is a bit better, and etc. I still do plainly the latter plus cr.B cr.A f.A since I don’t have to be: 1) Point Blank or near point blank and 2) I can chain slower so I can confirm easier.
So I feel you don’t have to do three hits, but yeah it does help to at least be able to do so when you need to close out a match or something and could barely get the confirm/recognize the situation.
On a different note, there are “wide” chain timings. When you chain lights, you’re canceling the light attack into another. There’s actually a wide window when this occurs so you could actually chain slower than what is minimally required. It’s like in 02, if Benimaru chains his cr.B too slowly his Handou follow up to Iaido kick would whiff although his cr.B’s did combo. Just gotta press buttons a bit faster, not really mashing but just get the rhythmic pace of things.
On a different, different note, I’ve been playing way too much Lucky Glauber in 98 og on GGPO. I’ve been too hype on the 98umFE change list (read it again to feel good) that I’ve been just wanting to play him in general. Since my knowledge of spacing is getting pragmatically better, I’ve been actually able to keep up with people online and bodying their top tiers and high tiers with my bottom tier Lucky. Ugh, I want Lucky in KOF XIII. I have a ghetto ambiguous roll mix-up that leads back into itself. All I do is punish with a point blank cr.B xx dp+D to make sure I don’t whiff, get hard knockdown, roll back in and keep doing it, then eventually end the mix-ups with an ambiguous roll into D throw so they can’t tech. FEELS SO GHETTO, so good.
On another note, if anyone wants to learn good neutral game or general KOF Fundamentals, you guys should speak to me and set up some sessions on GGPO if we’re too far to have KOF XIII online to work. I’m willing to play pretty much anyone about most of the time. Just PM me on SRK or contact me using IRC and I’ll usually respond immediately. Check the IRC Thread Sticky to see how to get onto the IRC channel.
I’m still procrastinating on and working on what may be a HUGE video or 2 videos which will cover Far & Mid Range game, KOF archetypal spacing/zoning characters and their nuances, Corner Trap/Attrition game with Punishing Escapes, when to guard roll and how to bait guard rolls, when to use a Guard Cancel Blowback and the risks and limitations of doing so, how to close in an opponent from further out and how to keep an opponent away, how to read and change the momentum of a match (the flexibility of putting on a strong neutral/defensive game and switch it to a good offensive [mix-up or attrition] game and know when to hold ground), and baiting and punishing rolls (and how to practice and set up baits for rolls to anticipate them so it’ll be easier to react and punish.)
I feel that Far & Mid range game stuff should go with spacing/zoning characters but those characters are also good attrition characters in the corner to keep chipping the opponent to force them to want to get out, which then leads to guard rolls or guard blowbacks among other things. I think I’ll just do a video on strictly the objective of each video, one on spacing from outside and one on corner traps and control, while having some of each subject overlap each other.
It’s just that mid-screen spacing and control is much more abstract and versatile than close range game that it’s a bit daunting of where to start and how to finish and how to put things together cohesively. With the close game, it’s pretty straight forward. I feel like there are so many set-ups, responses, and anticipations that happen mid-screen that there is more than a simple RPS game. Like imagine an RPS game where there were like 5 types of paper, 3 types of rocks and maybe 8 types of scissors and the amount of types varies per character. So there are almost indefinite ways to punish something, say, a full jump. There’s a hop back horizontal attack, there’s a neutral hop horizontal attack, a forward hop horizontal attack that may lead into a run under cross up, jump back horizontal attack, a mexican upper from crouching, mexican upper from a close position (meaning having to run underneath), trip anti air with either a sweep or cr.B, a standing light attack from the correct range, a DP, a projectile from the right timing and spacing, and more. Then there’s counters and anticipations for each tool, and it also depends largely on if that full jump the opponent does is done with an early or late attack and the kind of hit box it has, horizontal, deep, both, long active frames or short, etc. Then with Yomi layer 3, there’s even more answers to each of the answers I have to go against a full jump forward. Then there are certain tools that cover multiple possibilities/moments of anticipation, and some cover not as much as others but prevent certain other specific counters from working.
Check out my youtube page and one of the match analysis has O.Chris vs O.Chris. That’s a good example of very dynamic mid-range, aerial control and a good example of how to mix in run away/keep out with closing in and rush down and the momentum shifts between each player like only God knows how fast.
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Shit’s nuts and I am really daunted to make the videos. But fuck, I’ll do it. I just need to change my sleep schedule from sleeping at like 10 or 11 AM PST and waking up at like 5 or 6 PM PST. Shit’s nuts. Going to sleep soon and stop editing my post like a mad man.
Sure I’ll face you on ggpo Laban at 2k2. I’m nowhere near an xbox so I can’t play kof13, so I decided to try to learn some 2k2 so I at least retain something of the game. Since a lot of moves and properties change, I don’t really have a lot of reliable combos, so I’ll just throw out random shit. Stuff like with Leona seems like the hitstun is way less in the older games, so it’s messing with me quite a bit. I also look really retarded seeing if something is safe on block because I’m trying to hold back on the keyboard while trying to do one handed moves then holding up to see if they jump. It takes me a bunch of tries just to see if something like Kim’s rekkas are safe. Even then I think I fucked up these tests.
When are you on?
Also someone removed those links of franziska von karma and Shen “Citizen Kane” Woo from the wiki. The wiki got a little less godlike.
-_- in at least one aspect.
ONE. NOT WHOLE CHARACTER. ONE ASPECT. READ.
also “not practical” for something this good imo is basically a cop out. if it’s on the level of difficulty of chun’s infinites then eh, people will do it. people do one frame links etc a ton in sf4, and people do hard infinites all the time in marvel-like games.
Just PM me on SRK or say my name in the IRC chat, I really get on at weird times. Last night I just hopped on at 2 AM and played for a while. Also it’s most probably Phoenix and the others being derps and nofunallowed.jpg fags that are removing the awesome from the wiki. I’ll add it back in when I get the time. Sparkster also helped me with the awesome parts of the wiki so I’ll try to have him add back the ones that he added.
so as i read more and play a bit more im learning movement/hops is kinda what makes or break the game. correct me if im wrong please but i don’t think the combos are that necessary in this game as mosts games today. not unless u doing HD combos i guess but im still learning as i go.
You’re more or less correct. But you’d be more correct if it was about old KOF games. In XIII, you have to be able to know your HD combos to pull off ass-pull comebacks. It’s kinda lopsided and kinda rewards people who grind more combos than actually learning fundamentals. Theoretically at the end of the day, the better player with better basics should win. HD combos and how damage distribution works kinda turned off a bunch of older school players, especially those that played with zoning characters and mainly did singular hits. Those guys could space and force the opponent to make 5-8 mistakes and score barely a total of 400 damage while someone who just fishes for combos could just get a good HD combo down and hit someone for about 400-1000 damage off of one instance or mistake.
So in that sense, I have to learn HD combos if I want to keep up and I need to play more strictly than I did in the past KOF games to test and feel out the space. So I almost get SFIV anxiety when I play because I feel something random could happen and I’ll be TOD’d while the other guy flounders around the screen doing whatever without rhyme or reason.
That’s my only issue with KOF XIII. It’s not that HD combos do too much damage, it’s just that being able to zone and force “normal fighting game errors” should be more rewarded. Like an air to air j.D should be doing 120-190 damage, not some measly 70-80 kind of stuff. Then have the game recoded so that those variables that control damage proration redistributes properly so that Drive/HD combos still do the same type of damage they’re doing now when everything is scaling, but doing meterless bnbs as punishes and proper spacing actually means something more, forcing the opponent to try to play smarter or accept the consequences. Of course there will be problems when recoding everything especially with how certain HD/Drive loops work since many moves could loop a few times before actually needing a Drive Cancel or HD cancel. So the whole number system may have to be revamped along with how meter is built and all the other cascading effects that come along with changing damage variables.
In other words, this game still suffers a bit from “Current Generation Fighting Game Syndrome” like any other fighting game, it’s just less extreme/stupid compared to other fighting games. But yeah, it’s helpful to learn hops and spacing to try to open people up or defend against people. It’s just if random joe that grinds combos all day touches you once, it could all be over. Still, you need to know your bnbs and punishes. You won’t survive long just hitting people with cr.C all day or something.
On a similar tangent, KOF XIII is a well developed and balanced game tool-wise. All I feel is that it needs damage without needing HD.
Movement and combos are important in every FG, movement is how you get a position to attack the opponent, combos are what you use to capitalize on a successful opening. But ya Laban is right HD is a huge factor in winning the entire match.
Quick question with Goro: How tight is the Neo Max combo with him? The one where HD combos some grabs and then does the up throw super into ground explosion. I don’t know the names of the moves but I was planning on using Goro as the third member of my team, so I just want to know what I am getting into.
Really easy. cl.C df.C (BC Activate) st.D xx dp+D xx Super Throw xx Neomax. You just activate the qcfx2 Neomax at Daimon throws the opponent into the air, and it’s a pretty big window to confirm and buffer inputs.
It’s really solid. Depends on what you think a projectile zoning game actually entails between Terry and Kyo. The recovery and committal between their projectiles are more or less similar, the difference is how one actually controls and limits the air space once one gets the opponent to start hopping. Kyo has tools such as st.A, cl.C, cr.C, j.D, j.CD, j.2C j.A, st.D, dp+P, rdp+K, and EX Orochinagi for that type of air control while Terry covers it a bit differently with stuff like st.A, f.A, df.C, cl.D, Far D, Far C, j.B, j.CD, j.A well placed Burn Knuckles, Crack Shoot, Power Geyser, EX Buster Wolf, and maybe a few other moves. It largely depends on how well you control space with normals and what tool set of normals you prefer to control that space. Personally I find Terry more interesting and fun to play than Normal Kyo but Normal Kyo seems to have random confirms into damage out of his butthole so that works too. So it’s largely up to you, but it not necessarily that Terry can’t do “real projectile zoning.” But yeah, Normal Kyo does damage anyways.
Abel can basically infinite anyone in SSF4, like for real infinite, as in, you cannot escape it and will lose. (Chun’s infinite runs out at some point I believe), nobody tries it, it is much too hard. I don’t think you realise what the level of difficulty is of this infinite.
Angel’s infinite in 2k2 was pretty hard, but yes, tons of good players learned it anyway, it was practical. This infinite is much much harder. If someone, anyone at all, pulls this off, completely, in a match, I’ll eat something incredibly unappetizing of your choosing.
Also, I can read.
It doesn’t say EX Iori is utterly busted in one aspect thanks to an infinite. It says he’s utterly busted due to one infinite. don’t think I need to READ, but you need to stop WRITING wrong things.
On topic: everyone here in my local community is using shen, mirror matches everywhere, i will change Shen for Goro, i have betters results against him when i’m using grapplers.