Fir example, Jago can link after his light laser blade. So a combo could be:
CMK, LP laser, sHP, opener
Of course this requires the light laser, so abusing this is giving your opponent free breaks.
Also, an advantage of doubles is that they scootch your character forward (like boost is SFxT), so if you want to land the big combos and Enders, you will want to use doubles at some point.
This is really the beauty of this system. Labbing out an optimized combo isn’t the goal. However, important tactics like hit confirming still remain. I think taking the focus off memorization and lab work is a good evolution for fighting games.
My guess is each country will have their own day one editions.
Who knows, you might win in the long run going second. Who knows what’s gonna happen after the boxes/games hit the shelves.
Also, the fine print actually stated the shadow Jago is exclusively available through day one until February 14th… Which kinda contradicts what was said on stream… Maybe.
So I saw on MarkMan’s twitter and the madcatz site as well, that there is some new Android console pre-order today. Doubt they will spoil that with the TE2 pre-orders today as well. Hopefully it is at least this week though.
Given that it’s such a combo-oriented game, I would have liked to see more opportunities for chains. I’m more appreciative of links when they come as the result of having to time a juggle, and juggles are practically nonexistent in this game because characters (and combo time) drop like a rock when they’re hit in the air.
The game also actively discourages using chains to an extent because links do more damage and are harder to break, making the choice between chains and links more of a false choice as you become a more skilled player.
I don’t know if I’d call it beautiful. Maybe it’s different when playing, and maybe I’m just too unfamiliar with the game, but what I’ve seen resulting out of this combo system is that characters seem to have mostly the same combo opportunities no matter how they get the first hit. Hitting with a ground-to-ground normal from far away gives you the same combo opportunities as hitting with it up close, due to doubles moving you forward. There doesn’t seem to be a counter-hit state and special properties therein, and there’s no bonus for hitting opponents when they’re crouching. The only two modifiers I’ve seen are hitting the opponent while they’re in the air, and Instinct mode-only combos. The former is almost a non-issue in terms of combos, since juggling is pretty much actively discouraged in this game.
I haven’t seen enough variation in combos to think that the conditions in which you get the first hit matter most of the time.
The guide says that using manuals helps to maximize damage, and that players will be using more manuals as they become more skilled. I also recall videos saying manuals were harder to break. Did this change during development?
They are harder to break, but they lead to less overall damage.
Partly because they limit the length of your combo, and partly because they do not generate the same level of potential damage.
Really though, because of the differences between the two, they serve slightly different roles. Manuals are more defensive , while autos are offensive.
Also, manuals are not always even possible, where’s autos are always possible. I suspect you will really want a mixture of both.
Keep in mind, in KI a combo is not gaurenteed. In fact, combos have more in common with mixups.
To some extent, you are correct. As far as the Opener>Double>Auto>Ender setup goes, all the characters are very similiar. However, this really isn’t any different than the basic combo tree that exists in other games like MvC3 or SFxT. However, that basic setup is just the skeleton, and there are a multitude of options surrounding that tree. So, I think the best way for me to address your concern is just to talk about all the things that can be layered on top of that skeleton:
-Manuals: Manuals are links. Every character has different link, and different normals that allow you to manual in different ways and situations. You can also freely transition in and out of manuals from doubles and linkers based on SD and range.
-Custom Doubles: Each character has their own special way of doing auto doubles, Jago>AtW, Saber>Rabid, Sadira>Air, Thunder>Throw, Glacius>Ranged. Adding another set of options on top of the 3 usual options.
-Enders: Every character has multiple different enders which set up different combo opportunities. But these need to be built up (lvl 1- 4), and the way to build them up is through doubles.
In addition, remember combos are dynamic in this game and not static. Pretty much, you can do whatever you want in a combo. What keeps this freedom in check is the presence of breakers and lockouts. That’s what I mean when I say this is a good thing. One of the most common barriers for entry to a GF is the required lab time. SF mitigates this a bit by not being as combo heavy a game in the first place. The meat of the game is what happens before and after a combo, and not the combo itself. The KI system adds actual gameplay to the combo, and opens up the process so that its not difficult to learn or adjust on the fly. The latter is particularly important given breakers.
You should also include lockouts, EX moves, Breakers, and Counter Breakers into combo dynamics because combos are not solo in this game.
Also, Juggles are not actively discouraged. They just aren’t the main event. Juggles are still possible and most characters have a basic juggle that can do about 20%, and thats an unbreakable 20%. Jago and Sadira in particular can do alot of additional damage with a juggle at the end of a combo.
I was going to put a little aside at the end of my post that explicitly said that I was not saying that “All of the characters have the same combos,” but decided against it because I thought it would be too patronizing. I guess I needed it anyway.
Everyone having similar combo tools is not the issue. The issue is that aside from Instinct combos and the occasional juggle, a character has the same combo opportunities no matter where and when they win a hit in neutral, making the neutral game more shallow.
In KOF, hitting a heavy normal when close to the opponent grants a special normal that leads to easier and better combo opportunities, because hitting heavies at close range is hard to do. And in general, most games give you better combo opportunities when you hit up close, because the opponent doesn’t get pushed back too far. Doubles negate this by closing the gap to your opponent.
In BB, you get a few extra frames of hitstun for hitting someone while they’re crouching, because you’re being rewarded for opening them up; it’s easier to block low most of the time. In the same game, you get longer combo time and higher damage for starting combos with medium and heavy attacks, because they’re more difficult to do than a jab hit confirm.
In many different games, hitting the opponent on counter-hit grants special properties to that move and/or the rest of the combo.
KI doesn’t have these things, or anything similar to it. Saying the neutral game doesn’t matter in KI is probably too much, but it’s certainly not as important and definitely not as interesting. The trade-off is the in-combo “mixup” with breakers and bluffs, but it doesn’t have nearly as many interesting interactions as a good neutral game does, being a basic RPS system.
Being a basic RPS system? As opposed to… what exactly, I’m not sure I understand that complaint?
The different attacks all have different damage and KV scaling numbers. Starting a combo with a Heavy will grant you better scaling and less KV allowing you a longer combo. I also remember the developer talking about CH’s and that they function just like other games, but I could be remembering wrong.
Landing a clHP also give you more manual options than say a standard cMK (using Jago as an example), these options can lead to a longer, or at least make it harder to break than a hit from cMK. So, yes, different hits do lead to different combo openers, but eventually you are going to feed back into the basic combo system, but that combo system is the meat of KI, its what the game is in large part about.
Also, BB/GG’s combo system is much, much more involved than your example indicates. And even in that game you have many characters that all feed back into basically the same combo regardless of hit.
You KoF example is actually very similar to the KI system. Just think of the cl.Heavy normals as openers… they function very similarly.
This conversation would be better afte we’ve played the game for 6 months to a year. There’s been no real meta created around the combo system yet so a lot of this is assumption on a game that isn’t even out.
Whatever options there seem to be, it’s very obvious in theory that those options could multiply as we play the game for about 6 months any way. I just don’t like the whole guesstimation that the combo system doesn’t allow for options or is generic just because your favorite fighting games work a specific way that’s nice for you.
The “mindgames” (that term seems to be thrown around a lot in this thread) that result from predicting breakers/bluffs/non-action can never replace the same amount of depth that KI loses by having a shallower neutral game.
Good. Points for KI.
They’re not in the guide and I don’t recall seeing any “Counter Hit!” messages on-screen, which is why I’m assuming for now that they don’t exist.
Maybe. I think I’m seeing combos go back into the standard combo state a bit too quickly, though.
Well of course it’s more involved. I was giving just one example of what those games do to make their neutral game more interesting. I could go on about other things those games do. I particularly love BB’s head/body/foot attribute system for attacks, that avoids the usual issues of standard priority system and allows for quite interesting attack interactions.
That’s just blatantly false. In BB alone I can think of plenty of situations with any character in which their options drastically change depending on the circumstances. Assuming that we’re meterless, take Ragna’s 5B. Just his 5B. If he hits a standing opponent from far away, you’re getting a pretty short, low-damage ground combo. If you’re closer, you can gatling into 6A or 3C, getting the opponent airborne for longer juggle combos. Hitting an airborne opponent with it accomplishes the same thing. If you hit a crouching opponent lets you eventually combo into 6C, which leads into some of Ragna’s highest damage. All of these different opportunities from a single move of a single character.
We can’t have an honest discussion about the potential impact of mechanics before the game’s released?
People played the fingers in their ears game with SFxT, and the game they got…was SFxT.
Even in the Ragna example, almost all of his combos feed into the same few routes.
Also, where do you get “shallower neutral game”. I’m not trying to sound condescending (really), but how are you making that assessment? The game appears to have all the same neutral dynamics of most fighting games.
Yes, you are correct, right now everyone is going right into doubles, but I think alot of that can be chalked up to practice. I mean, most players haven’t had much time with the game yet, and doubles are easy-peasy. When you see one of the better players on the dev team play, you see much more variety in combo routes and confirms. I have seen Jago manual for a full 8 hits before the first double… though that was an older build.
