I’ll be there, and I’ll bring my Classic. I would have entered Final Round, but I don’t have a Gamecube controller of my own.
Im sure someone will let you borrow one.
Zamuel - Its hard for me to get behind ISP when its leader has or is keeping banned some of the weaker and easier to deal with stuff… coming on my youtube and telling me that spotdodge spam isnt how you dodge dragoon. I’ve had dragoon on from day one, and perfectly buffered spotdodges have made firing the dragoon trivial in my circle of players. I have a few hundred videos illustrating that, too. ISP’s criteria for item bans is far too considerate of an odd randomless vision for the game that everyone loves so much. I just think its silly. Proof is in the pudding, and I put my pudding on youtube for you guys.
- I’ll probably end up getting my own GC controller, but I’m only going to enter at Final Round if I know the tournament will be All-Brawl. If not, I’m counting on either you, me, or both of us to have some sort of setup going on for friendlies or an underground tournament.
- I read that YouTube comment. I thought Jack Keiser was supposed to be like really super item-savvy, but when I saw that he said spotdodging doesn’t work against the Dragoon, this was my face. Buffering spotdodge works for me every single time. What the hell’s he smokin’?
Well, it wont work 100% There is a 2-3 frame window where they can hit you, but they have to account for you changing the rythem and the natural delay between their button press and when dragoon ‘hits’. You end up seeing it miss about 90% of the time.
Seems pretty mindgame-heavy. My favorite items as far as I can tell are the Screw Attack, the Smart Bomb, and the Bumper. So satisfying to see that giant explosion man…so satisfying.
My favorite thing to do with the bumper: Jump up over the edge, toss the bumper down.
Instant Zone. Opponent dares not even approach that side or the minute they’re off the stage, the bumper will edgeguard them.
I just knock fuckers out with it. Bait them into throwing an attack and then counter with the bumper. Pitch it right at them. PING~! KO for Samus.
Fair enough. I don’t agree with everything on ISP and have made changes when hosting. Didn’t know he had went as far as to make a comment like that. I really do support having 2 stocks to make quicker matches and prevent item loyalty.
If only I could get everyone else to agree…
Hey now, hey now… I’m so sorry that I didn’t have the clairvoyance to know that you had the skill necessary to make spot dodge spam work against the Dragoon. I tried that (a lot), and it never worked for me or for anyone else, so I was supposed to assume that your videos (which you said yourself weren’t even accurate in terms of dodged Dragoons) proved the Dragoon easily dodgable? That’s not even remotely fair.
If you had knowledge that correctly (perfectly) timing spot dodges 100% beats the Dragoon, I certainly didn’t hear about it; the Dragoon was one of the least talked about items in ISP. It’d have been nice to have a heads up about that kind of info. Not to mention, vids of this supposed high dodge rate would be necessary for me to un-ban the Dragoon now, which (again, by your own admission) were not in your All-Brawl youtube playlist.
I only make decisions based on the knowledge I have. I even asked (kindly, at that) in my thread for people to submit data I didn’t know about. So, if the Dragoon is really so easily beat by spot dodge spam, I’d like to see this in action.
EDIT: I just checked; there were two instances of the word ‘Dragoon’ even being in a post. One was the OP item list. The other was me comparing the collection requirements of the Dragoon to the Smash Ball (in terms of difficulty), so that doesn’t even really count. So, yeah. We didn’t even talk about the Dragoon in the SRK ISP thread.
Jack - Dont be a fool. NOTHING 100% beats anything when both you and your opponent have control and are trying to win. It (spotdodge buffering) is a very successful way to avoid dragoon without much effort, leaving all the effort in the hands of the guy firing.
Again, I said in THAT SET, the number of dragoon hits was higher than normal (5-7, compared to usually 1-2 in a similar sized set). There are plenty of dragoon evades in that set. In previous sets (i have over 300 matches on youtube), you can see it being avoiding 90+% of the time by myself and E.Pants.
Like, I’m sorry Im not in your thread trying to show you that every single item you’ve used your criteria to turn off is actually fine. I’m not going to do that. I’ve done the logical thing and just left it all as-is. Everything on. We have different strategies toward the goal of getting items into competitive play. The problem with your approach is that you never GET to learn the stuff I have because it simply isnt turned on for you to play with. Of course, the problem with my approach is that its ‘not conservative enough’ and it scares a lot more players than your method does.
I just dont appreciate the insults on my youtube from someone like you. I expect it from 99% of people, but not from you.
Well, first of all, I apologize if I offended you based on a youtube comment; I tend to talk a little more ‘openly’ on there because, well, it’s youtube.
Secondly, all hyperbole aside, if the Dragoon has such a high dodge rate, the point is that I didn’t know about it. I’m not saying that you HAVE to come into our thread and tell me, but I am saying not to be surprised when you don’t and I somehow don’t know.
Lastly, I just checked. We don’t even HAVE the Dragoon disabled; it’s CP. It’s been like that for a little while, too. I thought something was funny about that ‘they have the Dragoon off’ thing. I’ve had a hunch that dodging the Dragoon wasn’t totally about prediction (as the SWF people keep saying), and so I turned it on CP because I figured that:
A ) my skills in dodging it were probably less than adequate, so I needed more data.
B ) if it remained off, no one would play with it, thus ensuring I never got new data.
C ) if it was off, no one would be forced to learn how to dodge it, ensuring that it would stay ‘broken’.
So… yeah. Just thought I’d inform you.
Are you buffering your spot dodge? If you are doing it right, you will not see the shield appear between them.’
Edit- like I said, im not going to come into the ISP thread and tell you that counterpicking items is probably a waste of time and that no item really should be banned. It conflicts with your style. Its just, if you want information on that items you do have turned off or as counterpicks, you might need to watch more than ONE all-brawl youtube video to start to get the picture… or you know, play it yourself and ask for solutions to anything you are having trouble with.
Oh, no, you’re totally right. I agree with you in terms of our disagreement in general theme; all I’m saying is that if I had data or info that would help you better run your setup (which would have to be restricted to set/match proceedings, seeing as all-Brawl is, by definition, unable to edit anything else), I’d totally come into your thread and let you know. It’s not about differing opinions or anything (because I disagree with all-Brawl at a base level), it’s about being fellow Brawlers/gamers and advancing the game, whatever that entails. In short, it’s more a policy of courtesy than anything else.
You are (as far as I know) SRK’s foremost collector of item data; as someone else running an item format, if there is any data you have that could help me better run any aspect of my format, I’d appreciate if it was shared. I’m not saying that you have to pick everything apart whenever you post anything, but a ‘Hey, just to let you know, a skilled player can buffer spot dodges’ and a few vids would have been nice instead of the whole ‘Man, he doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about’ thing.
In terms of the Dragoon specifically, I had more problems with whoever was playing Charizard (I guess that was you?) than with the item itself, although the spot dodge comment was made because the item hitting mirrored everything I already (thought I) knew about the item at the time. If I had time then to watch all the Dragoon vids, I would have, but I didn’t, which was my fault. I just noted that the events of the match mirrored what data I had at the time (although, as I said before, ina little more callous way than was necessary due to the nature of the venue, which I already apologized for).
if you spam spot dodges WITH buffering you have 6 frames where you are vunererable 1/10 of a second which can be easily hit if you just spam it and let them time it.
dragoon isn’t really that bad though its just mind games, trying to get your oppenent to fire and miss you and him trying to get you to do something predictable so he can get a guarrenteed hit, as far as gaurrenteed hits, right when someone lands their is a short period of time where it is impossible for them to dodge, im not sure on how long it is, but its pretty short, but they can’t mix you up and its always the same,
which is exactly why i dont get the dragoon cocmpleted sometimes. yu can set it up if you get a big hit and activate while your opponent is coming down. much easier to hit.
you can also purposely not buffer 1 dodge to change the rythm up on the shooter.
General knowledge about the Dragoon that peeps should be aware of if you’re not already…There is a period right as the dragoon is finished and your character flies off into the foreground that the targeting reticule is BARELY on the screen. Because of the way how the camera works…it centers on the opponent automatically…especially if the person isn’t moving. The person on the dragoon can just jam on a so it can come out at the quickest frame possible and if you’re not prepared for it…it can be quite jaring. I’ve done this to plenty of people who thought they were getting ready for the dragoon only to not have a chance to see where the reticule was…It’s still a mind game thing but it’s something to be aware of.
This is why I said its all mind games we already knew about both of these things.
I’d like to just randomly post and inform everyone that the Bob-omb is the best fucking item ever.
kthnxbai.
Whoa whoa…I really think you’re giving too LITTLE credit to whoever gets the Dragoon. If they’re good (and they should be if we’re talking about actual tourney-level play), then they should see the start-up of a dodge and then shoot at the end of that dodge. If tourney-level players can consistantly do JFs of three and four frames (or less), then a six frame JF shouldn’t be that hard for nearly any competitive player.
Maybe I’m just not seeing the difficulty of a six-frame JF. My bad if I’m not.
This isnt muscle memory like a just frame is. This is reaction to something that can be very fast, you have less than a tenth of a second to get your shot right, and your shot has startup you need to account for. Plus, every characters dodge lasts a different amount of frames.
Trust me. In practice, its not so easy to hit a spot-dodge-buffering opponent with dragoon.