If the associate producer of the game says that her anti air game is limited that most likely means she truly does have a weaker AA game and that it was done by design. It’s not something you can’t overcome, but it’s hard to say it’s completely fine when the developer pretty much admits that by design they didn’t want her to have a great AA game.

I will definitely have EX DP ready just incase.

So I’m assuming because she has a reversal now, they think it’s ok to nerf her AA game? She had no reversal in A3 but had a great AA game to conpensate. So I guess it’s the opposite for her in V. Sigh well isn’t that backwards…

As long as the timing is right for her anti air and the opponent doesn’t cross her up karin should be okay in that department.

They buffed st. FP quite a bit in beta 4. Probably making it a better anti-air. We will see this weekend.

The issue is that it has 1 good anti-air frame (it’s buff was more horizontal range on active frames 2+) and then it’s pretty bad. cr.HP only has 2 good anti-air frames. Maybe st.hp will be decent for far away jumps but it’s kind of iffy.

Just Frame Tenkou is always the better option in these situations.

I wonder why anti airs have been so difficult for some though.

Looking at the hitboxes for jumping moves, pretty much all of them have their hurtbox extend way lower than their actual hitbox does and the hurtbox usually appears 1 frame before the hitbox does. While most anti air moves usually have the hitbox extend further than hurtbox vertically. This is the hitbox from chuns j.HK

http://i.imgur.com/9k0lNhx.png

That’s also why Ryu or other characters can just mash on c.LP during Chun’s V Skill and AA her for free.

I’d be curious to see the exact quote and context, because PR people tend not to go out of their way to correct public assumptions, but in any case, Combofiend is not a designer. You had Woshige (actual designer) say that any character should be able to beat a powerful jump-in if they have the right timing. That’s an indication that they don’t want any characters who are weak to jumps in this game.

And more importantly, it doesn’t matter if the entire staff of SF5 form a line and each say that Karin is supposed to have an AA weakness, because what matters is what’s in the actual game.

I spent time practicing AAs myself and I was satisfied with it, so I don’t particularly care what the intent was. If you keep an eye on ranges and know the proper AA for each, then you can’t “just jump at her,” which is an acceptable request. If I couldn’t do that, I wouldn’t play the character. I can’t stand having weak anti-airs in games like this, and I’ve said before that your ground game is only as good as your AA. Even in other games (Marvel 3) it bugs me if I can’t prevent chicken-blocking.

It’s different when the opponent gets in crossup range, which is also not unique to Karin - almost no characters have truly good answers for this, and Karin actually has more than shotos do for example - but then you’re not talking about an opponent jumping over your ground game, which is where this conversation started. In order to get in crossup range they have already passed your ground game.

Not sure honestly, my memory says 100 but it could very well be the full damage. Either way I don’t think it’s usually worth the meter compared to what else you could do with it, unless you’re recovering from a poke and you don’t have time to do anything else. Part of the reason for this feeling is that AAing with normals puts you in a better situation thanks to dash cancel.

We don’t AA by looking at frame counts though. In my experience testing against randomly-chosen recordings, when used at the proper s.HP range, the 1 active frame hits high enough that it catches the opponent regardless of their jump-in timing or empty-jump. At different ranges or when divekicks are involved, you would be going for different AAs anyhow.

In fairness it’s not something that you can just pick up and do by hearing what the character’s AAs are. You have to actually practice it and know what the correct timing is and at what range s.HP actually works.

I’m not saying that “this AA is slow therefore bad” but rather that she has the same issue some characters in SFIV had where you have a very tiny window to anti-air properly. Great anti-airs tended to have 4-5 active frames where they hitbox was punching the sky and the less reliable ones had 2. Now, the greatly expanded hurtboxes on jump ins will help alleviate that somewhat, but I still did have a decent amount of trouble anti-airing with st.hp if they were mixing up their jump in buttons and ranges. Doing EX RP or meeting them in the air tended to feel like better bets.

Yeah a strong AA usually consists of having either like 3 or 4 really good AA’s for different situations or just having one real nice almost fool proof option for multiple angles (usually a DP). Karin seems like a worse version of Chun where not one anti air will cover everything, but even if you use all of the other AA’s it will still be a struggle to cover every situation.

I don’t really agree with that in the context of SF4. “Good anti-airs” with 5 active frames would still lose to a divekick, so they were not good anti-airs. Ultimately, “good anti-air” was to have a DP (or reasonable equivalent) to cover all trajectories. Anyone who didn’t have that ended up somewhere in top 8 acting as a spoiler to clear the tournament field of weaker characters. Not that there weren’t exceptions sometimes.

SF5 is a different game. There is not so much trajectory-changing, and vertical hurtboxes extend past the hitbox almost universally. I was worried about it myself, but I spent a good amount of time in the beta practicing against the training dummy’s random recording feature and never felt like I was getting beaten by the AA timing. It might be that even if the first frame of s.HP missed they still fell on the second active frame with their extended hurtbox, I’m not sure.

I wouldn’t be using it against someone like Cammy/Rashid that could actually threaten to hang in the air and punish. Probably better off to go for other things there.

Tenko also has the property that you are sitting directly underneath the opponent so they have no choice but to fall on the hitbox. At that range it doesn’t really lose, although reacting with that motion will take some getting used to.

EX RP is a safe bet for starting out because it doesn’t take any timing to use, but ultimately I don’t think it will be worthwhile outside of emergencies.

Edit: Worth noting that the range where s.HP works IS pretty small. When you’re too close for cr.HP/tenko to be reliable, and too far for jab to hit empty jumps. So you really have to watch ranges extremely closely.

Moves with lots of active frames were actually pretty good against divekicks. Sakura’s cr.hp (and cl.hp if they were doing a close up mixup) for instance, had a bunch of active frames and tended to catch both jump ins and divekicks reasonably well. Bison’s cr.hp in this game tends to catch divekicks and normal jump ins thanks to a lot of active frames.

But yes Karin is going to be all about moving into the optimal range using her great walkspeed then anti-airing.

I’m probably in a small minority but I was actually drawn into maining Karin because of her AA’s; I’ll elaborate.

In SF4, I was a Sakura main and Karin shares many of the same AA buttons that Sakura has. I’m assuming I’ll have a very small adjustment period because of this fact but the fact remains that her AA buttons aren’t as good.

In SF4, anti airing was a very strong skill of mine (obviously not counting Sakura’s godlike cr HP). I think Karin has a good AA game, it’s just lacking in the range that matters most - when people jump in on you at max poke range. Now that isn’t saying the hitboxes couldn’t be better, I believe we’ll have to settle for lots of trading hits in our AA game unless they’re buffed and/or we just get used to our AA ranges better.

I need to get more hands on time with Karin but I’m approaching anti airs like this:
Crossup range = jump back MP
Normal jump in range = St LP or dash under, qcb PP
Outside of max poke range (not at max range) = St. HP
Slightly further than that = cr. HP (I want to try experimenting with jf tenko as well)

I don’t think we’ll have much issue against Dhalsim if he’s trying to do fireball - teleport shenanigans. Every time you see Dhalsim teleport, just jab or St. Hp (which I’m assuming will work, I want to test it) to beat him out of his jumping attack. Recovery should be fast enough that even if he teleports away, you’re at a safe range that you can recover and continue playing without getting whiff punished.

I agree with you about her buttons being similar, since that’s one of the reasons I was happy about playing her. Even if the buttons aren’t as good, the fact remains that they both have basically the same LPs, LKs, cr.MK, cr.HP and the same crossup j.MK. Those simple things are super important to me, even if those buttons aren’t as good as the versions Sakura has, they still feel the same, which I was really happy about.

Dhalsim’s teleport has (had?) a weird property where he tends to switch sides after the teleport when he uses it at max range. He would teleport, and then I would press fierce, and the side switch would cause me to go under him and whiff. Even jab would whiff and I was puzzled for what to do.

But I realized that was just happening because I was testing it in training mode and not holding a direction. If you hold either direction and jab, it catches him out of the teleport unless he does it too high to connect. You can also connect with fierce if you are holding the correct direction but jab is more of a 100% solution.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they changed the way his teleport works before release, because it was pretty wonky in beta 3.

Anyone tried using her Neutral jump M.K to “anti-air/air-to-air” kinda like Ken in Third strike?

Not very good compared to jump MP.
https://d.maxfile.ro/nzupkhefcn.png
Not only it extends your hurtbox, it starts 1 frame later. Here’s jump MP for comparison.
https://d.maxfile.ro/qwimndnzaa.png

Damn, it looks so similar to ken’s jump mk which I loved. Gonna have to try jump MP this weekend, thanks for the links.

According to some datamining on beta 4, which I’m sure you’ve all read already
Forward Throw - Stun 150 -> 170
Back Throw - Damage 130 -> 140, Stun 150 -> 200

Her throws hurt a bit more now <3

Beta is up early boys