Karin General Thread: Elegant offense for a more civilized age

Street Fighter V Karin
581

The thing is that being annoyed doesn’t accomplish anything, and both sides are just repeating the same things. If it bothers you, say exactly what you would do to replace it, keeping in mind the existing system of the game and the relation to other characters.

Removing Gief’s SPD is a sloppy analogy, because you’re missing a lot of important factors. Gief’s SPD is the center of his character, while Karin’s is her rekka. It might sound weird, but keeping Karin’s command grab in SF5 would change how her character plays a lot more than removing it would, honestly. In A3 you can’t really tech throws, only soften them, so the rules are different and command throws aren’t that big of a deal unless they have some other advantage like huge range (or v-ism stuff.) Karin having a command throw in SF5, on the other hand, would be a big deal, and have to be compensated for elsewhere.

Ken might seem similar enough to SF4 Ken, but go back to Alpha like Karin is or even 2 and there’s tons of differences. Where’s my roll, or safe shoryu?

It’s more like this. You have two choices, Gief A and Gief B.

Gief A has his SPD moved to V-trigger, and it’s like SF2 SPD, way stronger than any other modern command grab. Outside of V-trigger, he has other command grabs. Maybe one of them is a leaping grab that goes around projectiles, so it has range but also some startup that can be counterhit. This accomplishes the same goal as running bear grab and green hand, so you don’t need them anymore. Maybe he gets green hand as a cameo during the EX version.

Gief B always has access to SPD, but it has significantly less range, his running bear grab is completely unusable (but it’s there!), his green hand is not useful unless you spend meter on it, and he’s become much more reliant on strikes and jump mixup rather than grabs because of how unsafe his nerfed grabs are.

Either way you have a character with an aspect that the developers have clearly identified as undesirable in the modern system (SPD) and these are two different ways of approaching it. Gief B is SF4 Gief, doomed never to be good. Gief A still plays like Gief, but in a different way from his old version, and he has more room to be good in his own way.

I would rather not have Gief B. Just having the moves for nostalgia purposes doesn’t really do anything for me if the greater picture is going to suffer for their sake, despite how much I might like them in a vacuum.

582

You realize it sounds weird because it is nonsense right? No character in the history of fighting games has had a usable command grab and not have it influence their upclose game. Every person I’ve talked to asking for Karin in SF4 wanted a character with a rekka & a command grab (then I’d point out fei long but that is a different topic). To her identity having both are essential to everyone I know that has been clamoring for this character. Rekka influences the mid-range game and command grab influences the upclose game. Arguing a rekka is more iconic then her command grab is like arguing whether the fireball or the shoryuken is more iconic for a shoto, it is a silly question because they both are important to her core identity. Sure you see the rekka more … but you also spend a lot more time in the mid range game in SF then you do the upclose game.

Again though, there are ways to balance a move other then simply removing it. A command grab that deals no damage is not scary or so slow you have to train your opponent first or risk getting poked out. Just balance it around that. Stylistically it is dumb, the fact I pointed at giefs grab is because again … the concept is dumb … maybe not equal levels of stupid but you read that and think … that is fucking retarded. If you thought that then my words accomplished their objective. Both concepts are stupid even if not equally so. Also counters are rarely universally useful, but as it has been pointed out by others in some matchups they can be incredibly useful because being a ‘bad dp’ with less recovery has advantages when trying to get in against predictable use of long range attacks like sim’s. What balance reason do you remove a counter for? There is none … no counter in fighting games has ever have been too OP even including Hakumen’s in BB that can literally 100% you with the followup combo if you don’t have burst.

Then you also created a strawman argument with 2 hypothetical giefs. There are a near infinite number of possibilities by just adjusting move properties. You could make it more interesting any a lot of ways.

Gief C

  • Running bear grab is useless outside v-trigger & ex where ex is fast & armored and in v-trigger the normal ones speed up and gain armor in a similar manner to Cammy’s v-trigger.
  • SPD is only 2/3rd’s range of what it was in SF4 outside V-trigger but it has a bit more range then SF4 in v-trigger.
  • Green Hand just stays how it is in SF4 to some degree but mess with push back, active frames, startup and whatever to balance it how you want it to be.

I could create gief C through ZZZZZZZZZZZZ but really don’t feel like it and the point should be made.

That wasn’t in your A or B but nothing stated there is crazy. Some is very good but because it is very good … you can make the counter strategies stronger. That is what scaling a game up and not nerfing, but buffing other characters to compensate means. Scale up! Going the way you are talking about is the same thing in SFIV that annoyed people. Dealing with stale white bread no crust options because Capcom doesn’t want interesting stuff to exist, which doesn’t make any sense. Capcom said they weren’t going to do this and personally I want to voice my concern any time I see something counter to that message they sent because I think it is important to making SFV interesting.

583

I’m a big Karin fan, and I’m happy with her inclusion.
This is a odd arguement, but capcom cannot please eveybody, in fact I was having this opposite one about how little the changed Chun-Li compared to the rest of the cast.

However to say she doesn’t have rekka’s and a command grab isn’t right, she has both.
Her rekka’s are v trigger locked, but from what I’ve said she’s got one of the top two in the game so far v skill, its very easy to get her v trigger, you still get your rekka’s. Not only that but her high-low- command grab mixup is still there regardless,or am I missing something?
Her grab follow up is a command grab right?
People will be picky I guess,

584

What I’m saying is that SF4 is what happens when you request the design strategy you’re talking about. All the old characters have all of their old moves and because the developers don’t ACTUALLY want those moves in the game, they just make them bad instead. Blanka and Vega are the prime examples.

Is your end goal to convince me that counters are nice for the character to have, or to convince the designers? I’m not empowered to change the game.

So what I’m suggesting here is the approach you have to take if you want to convince the developer of something. You have to tell them exactly what you want to add and exactly what you want to remove in exchange for it. And definitely don’t just say “it’s okay to add this without removing anything because it’s not OP.” It’s easy to create an overpowered character without any overpowered tools, if you add enough of them. That’s just a silly argument.

Capcom’s intent is obvious - they keep talking about “commitment” and a rekka above all things goes against that idea - a special that’s not only safe, but can be confirmed into more damage for free. Instead of removing that ability, they compensated in other areas (especially the lack of any sort of reversal.) It’s not about strength, it’s about design principles, so you would have to convince them why your approach fits under their intended design for the game.

I think you are selling her non-VT specials short, for my perspective. The potential is in them to already be the “weakened rekkas outside of VT” that you are asking for. They just look different, so it’s not immediately obvious.

585

Eh, I’m gonna drop the argument it has taken to much of this thread. ‘Design principles’ is a vague buzzword and an excuse to make your decisions when there are other ways to attack certain problems. They have shown imagination with the other characters, I feel Karin did not get that same attention to detail that has made the other characters interesting on their redesign. My annoyance is not with you, I stated my grievance and was going to leave it be then you said my grievance was misplaced so the discussion that happened afterwards was me justifying my grievances. No one imagines you have the ability to change anything. A forum is a place to discuss opinions and this thread is to discuss opinions about Karin in SFV. Those are my opinions. My opinions were stated and so that is how it got to this point. My best hope is someone of a similar interest can read that grievance and have it give them ammo to create a discourse with a rep, dev, or get enough people to agree one of them hears it and makes a change. No one here has the ability to make changes directly, I can only hope to create enough like minded individuals a change gets made.

I’ve done some indie game work, built a fighting game engine, and played fighting game for 9 years or so. Those are the opinions I have and while i have been skeptical about every other character before seeing them, this is the first character after having seen them I was disappointed with for reasons that aren’t remedied by simply changing some frame data.

586

I dunno. I think it’s important to look at what the developer’s goals are because it helps explain some of the decisions they make. VT seems especially like a system designed to allow them to add things that they don’t actually like without making them take over their vision for the game.

Personally, I disagree based on what I’ve seen, and that’s abou as much as there is to be said. Their attention to detail on carrying over the core gameplay even without actually having rekka inputs outside of V-trigger is encouraging. I would much rather have that than unsafe fireballs, zero walkspeed, or stubby buttons.

If I can bring up another recent example. Makoto in SF3 and SF4 are very different characters. Superficially and visually they’re similar, but they don’t play at all the same, because Capcom was not willing to have a command grab as safe and rewarding as Karakusa in SF4. If I liked the old versions of the characters, I would rather have SF5 Karin than SF4 Makoto, even if both can potentially be good.

587

Them liking or disliking something is arbitrary. Anything that is arbitrary is decided by simple preference. One can disagree with preferences because everyone has a different one. Makoto eventually got the frantic style that made her interesting after some buffs after Super. You can keep the core of the character and change it up. SF4 Ultra Makoto is more like SF3 Makoto then SFV Karin is to Alpha 3 Karin. Makoto’s move properties may be different but her same basic up close mixup exists that leads to similar frantic play style. It isn’t possible to loop it endlessly like SF3 but it still exists in some form. Karin simply can’t do the same things because the moves no longer exist. Those are not the same and there was almost no give like EX fukiage hitting grounded or axe kick becoming a ghetto divekick to compensate like Makoto got for not being able to stay in endlessly. Makoto can very much still kill you with 2 strong guesses. Sure for balance she can’t kill you off 1 anymore, but given the game is different she can still be terrifying in the right hands.

I feel you are attributing decisions to some grand scheme that simply is a limitation the developers do not in reality have. They can do whatever the hell they want. If they decide to not do so is simply a decision. They are not magically gimped by some overarching system limiation that makes giving a character a move impossible to do safely. SFIV Makoto is actual a perfect example of what I am saying is possible with a redesign. Makoto is honestly just some frame data on her axe kick away from being really strong in Ultra and even without it she isn’t bad.

588

What I like about Karin is that she again follows a philosophy that was also explained by Capcom early on. Not about commitment, but one about making sure each character is as unique as possible.

Making Karin a character that doesn’t have just about every type of non projectile special you could want, but adds new options within the ones she does have keeps her unique. She isn’t just Fei Long with more stuff anymore. She has her own flow and options and her rekkas require more meter management as they are now attached to her V Trigger.

The options with V Skill and Trigger allow everyone to be more unique and not have 3 and 4 different rekka characters just for the sake of having rekkas. They already have R.Mika who has multiple command grab options so making Karin something different from that also helps add to her diversity against the other roster.

589

I think i would be happy either way; whether they leave her as is or went to her more A3 style. But i can play A3 Karin in A3 so i’m more interested in playing this version. What i dont want them to remove is the backstep from rekkas. I believe that if you did take the rekkas out of v-trigger and left it all as it is then the backstep would be ridiculously overpowered if there were no restrictions on it.

  • You practically get a safe hitconfirm. You go into the backstep if it was blocked or combo from hit.
  • Fast reversals like srk will punish anything -3 on block and will punish any other followup because of invul. Backstep makes it whiff and now you get CH punish. Much more punishing conditioning tool.
  • Recovers super fast that you can whiff punish normals/throw attempts. The trailer even makes a point about showing you this
  • Keeps you safe against things that will freeze the screen. This was a big problem in A3 where people could just activate v-ism and punish you accordingly. Chars like Akuma will just activate -> c.HK xx demon flip throw for 60% of your health for free. And now that there are many install v-triggers plus the fact that will probably have some install supers later on like rose balls means that loads of chars have the ability to freeze the screen and see what you’re doing. Backstep keeps you safe from all that.
  • Teleport characters. If you do a rekka to a character like Akuma in the corner, then theres not much stopping him from just teleporting forwards beating all of your followups and he gets out of the corner and now you’re in the corner. Backstep looks like it recovers quick enough that you can potentially punish people for trying to teleport out of the corner. Midscreen that can teleport backwards and backstep wont help with this, but you either could punish with up+P followup and if that doesn’t work, they are at least pushing themselves more towards the corner.
  • Command grabs. Only thing that is normally gonna beat em is the up+P followup to get yourself off the ground. Backstep just avoids it altogether and you get a full punish accordingly.

Now i recognize that i wont be getting all this utility for free and thats why rekkas are in v-trigger. You could make the argument she has rekkas in normal mode and gets access to backstep in v-trigger. Bit boring imo but it’s possible. Either way, i just want that backstep the why it has been portrayed so far. If you’re gonna confront Capcom about other things then im fine either way on it; just ask to keep the backstep as well please. I swear to god if this gets removed im going round all your houses and delivering a personal dropkick from me to you.

590

Er … Fei Long stole her stuff. Fei long had a rekka … that was the only similarity at all … then they gave him a command grab. They were very dissimilar until 4 made them more alike. I don’t get how because capcom canabilizes Karin’s moveset to give to other characters all of sudden Karin shouldn’t have moves that at the very least have completely different animations and that isn’t going into property differences. Sure R. Mika has an armored EX rekka no one is asking for something like that. No one is asking for Karin to have multiple different command grab enders. No one is saying give her a dp or anything super powerful outside the scope of what defines the character. People are saying why doesn’t she have the moves that define who Karin is? It was like when Ken was announced and some people were confused if he even had a fireball, Ken is a shoto … he should have a fireball.

I just don’t see how removing options from a character makes her more ‘unique’. Your options are what makes you unique. Having something iconic like being the character who has crazy rekka’s and not straight forward ones is what makes you go ‘whoa that’s cool’. It is character defining. No other character has options many people would consider character defining just taken from them other then Karin. Hopefully, her dash mechanics become interesting but given I can say the same things about Rashid and Ken it definitely won’t make her ‘unique’.

I agree whole heartedly with backstep. I think her NEW options should be behind v-trigger. It is her old options that i disagree being behind v-trigger. I do think the backstep should have a bit less meter though unless there is just something we haven’t found about her other options that makes them stronger then they appear. Honestly her strongest attribute currently that i’ve seen is being able to cancel the final hit of rekka series into super … that’s kinda insane. I don’t know how good she will be, I just have a distaste for her command grab being removed and all of her rekka options being behind v-trigger as that is very much a different character in Karin’s clothes and don’t feel it has the same attention to redesign that the other characters got.

591

The way Karin is designed should be pretty final. There were people who were complaining about Vega being a motion character and they haven’t budged on that. Pretty sure that’s going to stay and the way Karin works most likely will as well. Don’t see any chance for counters or command grab to come back or any changes to rekka’s V Trigger attachment.

592

I don’t understand or am I missing something,
She still had rekkas.

You’re talking like she don’t have them at all,

She still has the moves that define her

593

Ryu has a Hadoken, a Shoryu, and a Tatsu in SF3, in Marvel, and in SF5, but if your perspective of the character is SF2 Ryu, is he really still Ryu in those games? Is CvS2 Sagat still Sagat? Is SF4 Makoto still Makoto?

You could find people who would say no to all of those. I would rather be a Karin player with no counter than a Ryu/Ken player with unsafe fireballs.

It’s odd you’d say that because especially USF4 Makoto is the version that finally killed off the diehard Makoto players who tried to make her work through several versions. 2012 was easily the most complete version of the character, and her changes after that were some of the worst in Ultra from a design perspective. What people wanted from Makoto was a grappler, not a striker who only has one real combo and resets you into left-right mixup.

From what I’ve seen of SF5 Karin, I have reason to think that she will play more like the old version of herself than just about anybody in the cast (again, if you disregard V-ism, which is inevitable.) Block-hit-confirms and rekka decision making are still there even when you’re not actually using a rekka. On top of that, her buttons are even better and she still has the walkspeed to use them.

If you want to land a throw with Karin in A3, you usually use a throw. The command grab could be removed and it would barely change your play at all (outside of V-ism.) This would not be the case in SF5 for obvious reasons. Keep in mind in A3 reversals were universal and safe, while in SF5 many characters don’t have one, and would have a hard time dealing with Karin’s mixup even without a command throw on top of it.

It’s not that much different from expecting Ken to still have safe shoryu on block because he had it in older games, where safety on block did not have as much meaning. A grab being untechable has a lot more impact in modern games, and given Karin’s other options, it would still be extremely powerful even if it were slow.

594

Judging from the gameplay I’ve seen of her using this, as it is, it only catches people standing and doing nothing, which is virtually as useless as SF4 Cammy’s hooligan grab (really, the ONLY time I saw it used after the game was fleshed out was when abusing a bug where the opponent is considered standing during initial wakeup frames unless they do a crouching attack immediately). The opponent can both crouch and hit Karin out of the followup, so unless she can do raw overhead quickly after the Ressenha as a conditioning tool, I don’t see the opponent ever getting caught by this move after the game is fleshed out. Considering how slow overheads actually are, I’m leaning toward the move never being useful unless they change it’s properties.

595

>literally saying Karin is limited without spending some time in them labs and matches with her
Gee

Lel am just kidding

Can she still followup with Upkicks after Guren Ken ?

596

Like when Gouken has Shoryuken only as a Super.

597

Nope, replaced with a backdash cancel as a followup instead.

598

I don’t think that move is really intended to hit people after the overhead, outside of high-level conditioning late in a set. I think it’s mostly there to make the overhead harder to punish without actually making it safe (if you hit her during the hop, she just gets air reset.)

The hop during rekka is real mixup, though.

599

NOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

oh well, baiting out reversals is gunna be fun with Backdash

600

Those moves are inherently a lot different even if they seem visually similar.

Look at the design of the command dash followups. One that’s safe and doesn’t lead to anything, one that’s unsafe and launches. Cancel that from a poke, and you have something that screams “1-hit confirms.” End after the first hit, or continue into followups if you react quickly enough, just like you would with a rekka.

Ken’s dash can’t be used like that. It has an enforced delay before you can cancel, it, so you won’t be able to confirm it like that. It’s more of a gimmick/mixup tool.

And of course Rashid’s dash is something entirely different because he can’t even cancel into it. I’m not entirely sure what its use will be, but it would have to be confined to neutral.